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Sapphira and the Slave Girl | Willa Cather

Sapphira and the Slave Girl - Book vii to ix
#catherbuddyread

Nancy‘s escape, diphtheria and an epilogue with “I”. We get a look at an aspect of the Underground Railroad and then see how Sapphira responds, Then Nancy‘s return is in 1st person, and, even as it‘s fictional, it reminds us Cather was born in Winchester Va (in the house pictured) and so close to this era. Also, good grief, it creates nostalgia (!). Wait, this isn‘t a nice story. ⬇️⬇️

Graywacke What...what...um...hang on... WTF (😳) do you make of all this? Thoughts on the big picture? 5y

Graywacke Also, where do we go next? Our small group is pretty flexible. I personally have Cather‘s short stories and Alexander‘s Bridge on the shelf. But it might be time for @Lcsmcat ‘s biography idea - each reader picks one and we share. Think ahead. It will be at least mid January before we start - I think. 5y

Graywacke Also - while I‘m here - thanks everyone for another wonderful year of Cather. I really like her as an author, but this experience has been rich and rewarding and made this so memorable. So thank you 🙏 😊 5y

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Lcsmcat @Graywacke Thank you for organizing it and for putting forth such great things to think about. 5y

Lcsmcat I‘m really puzzling over this one. I understand that her health was not good as she wrote this last novel, which may explain the unfinished feel. But I wonder - could it have been more that she was conflicted about how to handle the subject matter? There‘s the nostalgia of the stories she grew up with. But then she grows up and has a more realistic view of the past, without the rose colored glasses. She seems to bounce back and forth a bit in this 5y

Lcsmcat She clearly shows the no-win situation Nancy was in, and the inhumanity of slavery. Then has everyone getting along just fine, former slaves not wanting to leave (!) and Nancy coming to visit and fitting right in, although from the description of her voice and manner you‘d think it would be a very awkward reunion. 5y

Lcsmcat So - that‘s my long-winded way of saying that the story doesn‘t hold together as well as her others, but is it because she ran out of time/energy, or because she couldn‘t decide which story to write? 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat first: you‘re welcome and thanks for being such a key part of it the whole way. 🙂 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat second: - unfinished? Awkward? Hmm. Not sure about that. It felt consistent to me. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Let me try to explain (that‘s supposed to be an opening for criticism ☺️). I think the last chapter is the first chapter - and the rest was how it came to that. This then is a close look a plantation life without contemporary judgment - that is, in my head, she presents a way of life and “argues” it‘s meaningful simply because that‘s how we got “here”. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat I‘m really curious to know other opinions about this. !! 🙂 5y

Lcsmcat Unfinished in the sense of unpolished, not needing another chapter. And yes, the Epilogue is the beginning (some even claim the “I” is Cather) and I get the nostalgia, and the “how we got here.” One of my grandfathers would occasionally tell stories of “Uncle Bill”, a black man working his father‘s farm, and there was both real affection and real racism, side by side in those stories. And it‘s hard to portray that complexity in print. ⬇️ 5y

Lcsmcat ⬆️ We prefer all good/all bad dichotomy. So I want to see that complexity in Cather‘s story. And I think she does a better job of it with Henry and even Sapphira than the other characters. Rachel and Martin are opposites, but equally one sided. Cather is capable of writing such complex and realistic characters that I was left feeling like she wasn‘t finished with these yet. (edited) 5y

emilyhaldi It did feel like the epilogue was written from Cather‘s POV almost, which I enjoyed. I wonder if she wasn‘t so much conflicted about the subject matter but just expressing the web of complications that stemmed from slavery and the era. I appreciated that Sampson and Nancy were both able to leave eventually and be successful as free people, but I found it understandable that they were frightened to leave initially. The farm was all they ever knew. 5y

emilyhaldi And of course the discrimination against them didn‘t end even once they were free. So that era was challenging in so many ways... such a long road to break away from slavery and the prejudices that were held at the time. But ultimately I think Sapphira loved them as best she could. I‘m not sure she even agreed that owning slaves was the right thing, but she was always struggling to maintain status and power 🤔 5y

emilyhaldi I‘m just thinking out loud here, clearly 😆 thank you @Graywacke for hosting!!! I had never read any Cather prior to this group and I find her writing to be fascinating! 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat ok, good points. Completely agree about Martin and Rachel. Rachel was underdone and the epilogue gave us no more insight. She‘s also a little too perfect. Martin - I thought she captured his charm early, but his single-minded harassment - he was a caricature at that point. Very un-Cather. 5y

Graywacke @emilyhaldi wait, this (!) was your first Cather? Oh, E, we need to fill you in. 😆 - no, wait, seriously. This one is better for completionists. Her prime writing over wwi and the 1920‘s is really special, some of my favorite stuff. (I‘m pretty sure there is a group consensus on that). 5y

Graywacke @emilyhaldi having said all that - really curious on your perspective on this. 5y

Graywacke @emilyhaldi oops. Missed your 1st two posts. Sorry. Cather doesn‘t touch on post-slavery experiences of racism. She has a black character in My Ántonia that I think about a lot. She puts no awareness of racism in his story either. But then she writes about “feminists” in a anti-feminist world who have no awareness of this anti-feminist-ness around them. That is she doesn‘t bark at the conventional atmospheres, even as her characters defy them. ⬇️ (edited) 5y

Graywacke @emilyhaldi also I think you touch on why many slaves chose to stay on after freedom. (This is what they knew and was safe, and likely the right decision in cases.) (edited) 5y

Graywacke @emilyhaldi one last comment - the first time i saw the “I”, I was kind of jolted into a different perspective. (Then the end note forced me to rethink it all again.) (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @emilyhaldi Do you think Sapphira even _thought_ about slavery in terms of right or wrong? I agree that she loved them in her way - a pretty harsh way, like her treatment of her daughter - and that status and power were important to her. But I don‘t see her as a thinking character. She was so pragmatic, even after her illness kept her from being physically active, that I saw her as a “doer” more than a “thinker.” She thought in terms of ⬇️ (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat ⬆️ getting a result. Not to explore ideas. 5y

Currey @emilyhaldi The I was jolting for me also. And I had this interesting anger at Cather for not telling me what happened to Martin and then being equally angry when she did, as it tied it up too neatly. I think that a large reason for people not being able to leave after slavery was pure economics. There were no jobs for uneducated people that had very specific skills that did not translate well off the plantations. (edited) 5y

Currey @Lcsmcat I joined the group only half way through but I think you are correct that Cather was not as sure of herself in this book. I did find Henry and Till to be complex but even Sapphira seemed too simple for a Cather character and I agree that Rachel and Martin were just set up as the good and the bad. (edited) 5y

emilyhaldi Lol @Graywacke well I hadn‘t read her before your group introduced me earlier this year.. I also joined in for Archebishop and Lucy Gayheart (one of my fav reads this year I think!). Which one do you recommend I prioritize to read next?! 5y

emilyhaldi It‘s a good question @Lcsmcat and I think since we saw that the rest of the family was exploring their own thoughts on slave ownership and feeling conflicted I just assumed Sapphira had to be exploring some of the issue herself. When Rachel helped Nancy to escape I felt Sapphy‘s anger was over betrayal from her daughter but was there a part of her that knew it was the right thing to do?? I‘m not sure she could see past her own ego and pride. 5y

Lcsmcat @Currey Martin‘s end did seem more like “what I wish had happened” than “what did happen” to me, too. 5y

Lcsmcat @emilyhaldi I felt like S‘s reaction to Nancy leaving was from injured pride. She told people that Nancy was in Chestnut Hill and would come back “when sent for.” And Rachel, when she receives the letter breaking ties muses “she was sorry to have brought another humiliation to someone who had already lost so much.” 5y

Graywacke @emilyhaldi of course. I was confused I guess. Archbishop is a good first one, maybe her best but also unlike any others. I can safely recommend everything before. 🙂 If you are looking just for something to try, her short novels are terrific - A Lost Lady and My Mortal Enemy. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @emilyhaldi @Currey Sapphira as a not thinking character is an interesting comment. It‘s possible she does things to Nancy without realizing she‘s jealous or without realizing she‘s doing anything. Interesting. 5y

Graywacke Sapphira‘s pride seems a central theme of this book. Her handicap and the irony of the almost flipped dependence with her slaves - yet She maintains a dignity - seems reflect many other aspects of her life and this story.(But she puts it all aside to help her grandchildren when they are in real need.) (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Pride does seem to be her defining characteristic. And the kind of pride that is afraid of being humiliated is often rooted in insecurity, which fits her, too. 5y

Currey @Lcsmcat @Graywacke @emilyhaldi I found it interesting that Cather led us to understand a bit of what was going on between Henry and Nancy. Nancy needing someone who saw her and knew she did a good job. Henry happy to experience her joy and getting something from knowing his own impact on her. And then how Henry is frightened by the Colbert blood when he sees that Nancy could be a sexual being to Martin. ⬇️ 5y

Currey ⬆️ Cather, on the other hand, does not give us Sapphira‘s point of view regarding Nancy. We know her actions and we assume the motivations but never really get to understand exactly what is happening. Pride explains much. And I was surprised how she reacted to her grandchildren‘s sickness. 5y

CarolynM You all make good points @Graywacke @Lcsmcat @emilyhaldi @Currey In some ways this feels to me like an outline for a novel. The characters are less complex and the story less compelling than I am used to from Cather. I thought there were less descriptive passages too. If she'd been well I imagine she would have spent more time developing her characters and refining her story👇 5y

CarolynM Maybe, rather than being conflicted about how to present the issues, she was trying to give us both sides if the argument. Sapphira the representative of the old South, proud of her family and their position and preserving the way of life she had grown up with, Henry and Rachel representing more progressive ideas taking hold in other parts of the country. 👇 5y

CarolynM I think also Cather is pointing out that most people prefer what they know over the Unknown. Samson's reasons for not wanting freedom, Henry's reflection in Book VII that no "ragged, shag-haired, squirrel-shooting mountain man" would trade places with his well fed and well treated slaves, Rachel's recognition later in the same Book that Canada was a vague idea even to her.? 5y

CarolynM The story of the children's illness and the differences in treatment offered by the two doctors was interesting to me too. I wonder if it was intended as some sort of allegory - each having a different understanding of what was the right thing to do. I do think that we have to remember how much our understanding changes over time. I am sure that future generations will look back and find us blinkered and ignorant. 5y

CarolynM Thanks, Dan, for your magnificent hosting of this group, and to all the group members for your thoughtful contributions. You have all given me a lot to think about over the last couple of years and helped me to a greater understanding and appreciation of Cather. 5y

Louise @Graywacke et.al. Sorry to have missed this discussion. I‘m behind in my reading! To Dan‘s question about “what next?”, my vote would be to read and discuss Cather‘s short stories before moving on to other authors/topics. I hope this group will continue beyond the finish of Cather‘s works. These discussions have been marvelous, and it would be great to keep them going! Happy Holidays to all! (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @Louise I agree, I‘d love to keep this group going after Cather. We do still have Alexander‘s Bridge, her first novel, to read and lots of short stories. 5y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM I think you‘re on to something, maybe Cather was trying to show both sides, and if she‘d written it at the height of her creative power might have been successful. 5y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM I‘ll have to ponder the 2 doctors some more. I took it at face value- the wealthy and ill S would have a better doctor. But this is Cather, so there could be depths to the choice. 5y

jewright @Currey I think she realized her grudge was petty. She realized she needed to do something to help. Then once she reached out, it was easy to offer for them to stay the winter. 5y

jewright @CarolynM I found this interesting especially considering our crazy circumstances today. I really wonder how we will look back on this time in 50 years. We now know so much better, and I‘m sure that will be the case as time continues. 5y

jewright @Graywacke Thanks for leading this group. I have loved exploring Cather with you all for a year and a half. She was never my favorite in high and college, but I really have grown to love her works over the reading for the group. I vote for continuing Cather. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat insecurity and pride go together. And insecurity is a kind of fear which leads to hate which leads to Sapphira‘s rather complex relationship with Nancy. Thinking this through, Sapphira‘s best moments in the book come after Nancy‘s escape. Maybe it was good for Sapphira! 5y

Graywacke @Currey two thoughts. First I think there was a lot more say about Henry, but he was frozen in place (until the epilogue). He was (maybe?) a interesting thinker. Second your comment on our not getting S‘s view of N is consistent with @Lcsmcat ‘s comments of S as a doer not a thinker. (So her view is maybe unworked out in her own head?) Anyway, interesting insights. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM on the two sides - what I found interesting was that Henry was against slavery and yet couldn‘t do anything about his own slaves. (Whereas in a way, S was master of her world). I agree Cather made an effort not to condemn slave holders or to sensationalize slavery (try getting away with that in a novel today!) She really tried to be balanced. ⬇️ 5y

Graywacke In week one I posted “Cather is interested in lives within larger forces - trapped within”. I was hesitant then, but it‘s what i keep thinking about now and it‘s so present here - Henry struggling and S embracing this world - yet both are really only trying to be good and make the best of it. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM @Lcsmcat the doctors! Much to say there on economies, self-deluded quackery, traditional medicine and the knowledge of the era. Especially interesting to me was how knowledgeable the good doctor was in the backward 1850‘s US world. I hope Cather was accurate there. As for the two sides - i have to think that through more too. Please share you 💡thoughts. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM and, finally, thanks for being such a big part of our group! 5y

Graywacke @Louise I‘m certainly open to the short stories next. Anyone else want to chime in? @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy ? And @jewright - yes, definitely I want to continue. !! 5y

Graywacke @jewright @Currey on S responding to her grandchildren - nothing to add except that I found that interesting. No Hamlet hesitation, no torturous concerns on undermining her core values, she just does, as if “of course” 5y

Graywacke @jewright finally thanks for being a big part of this. 5y

Graywacke What a great conversation here. 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I think S wanted a way to heal the breach with her daughter without losing face, and the children‘s illness gave her that opportunity. Also, when one died, that had to make it hit home that time was not on her side. 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke @CarolynM On the idea of being trapped within their world, both S and H were, and each was “with the majority” at one point, just never at the same time. I think there was real feeling between them, but a gulf they couldn‘t cross. Kind of like a household politically divided in the US right now. I have friends in marriages like that and it‘s tough! 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I‘m game to read anything next - I just want to keep discussing books with all of you! 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat on your last comment, yes! Please! 5y

Currey @Graywacke Yes, thank you for leading this group and for everyone‘s insights. I do get a great deal more from my reading with all your help. I would like to simply continue....whatever everyone wants to read. I have not read many of the great Cather so I have much catching up to do. 5y

jewright @Graywacke Confidence seems to be one of her strengths. She never questions if she is right. The Miller seems plagued by doubt, but she is always sure. Whether or not she is in the right is another matter, but she never questions herself. 5y

CarolynM @Graywacke @Lcsmcat The "trapped within" idea resonates with me for a lot of Cather's work - characters trapped in their time, location, society, family, marriage. And I can certainly see some modern parallels. I also want to continue with Cather. Is there a reason we haven't done Alexander's Bridge? BTW, I've got my husband's book group reading Cather - I suggested My Mortal Enemy to them and they liked it so much they're doing Archbishop now. 5y

Graywacke @jewright good point! S never hesitates on anything. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM @Lcsmcat we skipped Alexander‘s Bridge because I didn‘t know it existed. ☺️ So now we need to go back and catch it. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @batsy @jewright @Louise @Sace @Tamra @Suet624 @arubabookwoman @Currey @catebutler @Catherine_Willoughby @crazeedi @mdm139 @Tanisha_A @emilyhaldi @rubyslippersreads @KathyWheeler based on the above I think we should do Cather‘s short stories. There is a Vintage edition called Collected Stories by Willa Cather that I recommend. Start date is undecided but I‘m thinking late January(?). Looking for feedback. How does that sound?

Collected Stories

Lcsmcat @CarolynM So cool that your husband‘s group is reading Cather! Does he discuss the books with you? 5y

TEArificbooks Sound good 5y

TEArificbooks Sorry I didn‘t participate for this book. I have been sick (not corona) for weeks and trying to play catch up. I still plan on reading the book and will check comments later. 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke That‘s great. I‘ve ordered it, but could someone who has it already post the table of contents? Many of her stories are available in the public domain and that way people could download the eBook version. 5y

Lcsmcat @mdm139 Sorry to hear you‘ve been sick. I hope you feel better soon. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM I meant to comment on that too, about your husband and Cather. I love that! ( @Lcsmcat ) 5y

Graywacke @mdm139 hope you feel better! 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i found this: https://www.willacather.org/collected-stories-willa-cather 5y

Graywacke Collect Stories Contains:
* The Troll Garden (1905), with "Flavia and Her Artists," "The Garden Lodge," and "The Marriage of Phaedra;"
* Youth and the Bright Medusa (1920), with "Coming Aphrodite," "The Diamond Mine," "A Gold Slipper," "Scandal," "Paul's Case," "A Wagner Matinèe," "The Sculptor's Funeral," and "A Death in the Desert;" ⬇️⬇️ 5y

Graywacke * Obscure Destinies (1932), with "Neighbour Rosicky," "Old Mrs. Harris," and "Two Friends;"
* The Old Beauty and Others (1948), with "The Old Beauty," "The Best Years," and "Before Breakfast;"
* Five Stories (1956), with "The Enchanted Bluff," "Tom Outland's Story," and "Willa Cather's Unfinished Avignon Story," an article by George N. Kates. 5y

Graywacke Thinking about timing. It‘s 500 pages. If this one was too fast (I suspect it was) then I might try something like a 50-pages a week pace, half the pace for Sapphira. (edited) 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Thanks. I hope this helps people who have her stories in other editions. That pace works for me, but I‘m flexible. I‘ll go with whatever the group decides. 5y

rubyslippersreads Sorry I didn‘t participate with this one, but short stories sound great, because it‘s easy to fit them between other buddy reads. 5y

Graywacke @rubyslippersreads yeah, i like that too. (sometimes I read them the morning of discussion ☺️) 5y

Suet624 I can certainly try. 🥴 5y

CarolynM The short stories seems like a good place to go next. Maybe rather than a set number of pages per week we do one or two stories? My ebook, which purports to be a complete Cather, doesn't seem to contain Obscure Destinies, but it does contain a book called Not Under Forty which appears to be a book of essays. I'd love to read this as a group too. 5y

Graywacke @CarolynM ooh. I‘m interested in her essays too. As for short stories, completely agree, we should do stories - but i was thinking to group them such that they come out to roughly 50 pages a week. (edited) 5y

CarolynM 👍 5y

CarolynM @Lcsmcat Yes, we often discuss books although we don't often read the same ones. Anything I think is really exceptional I tend to push on him until he gives in and reads it😆 5y

Lcsmcat @CarolynM @graywacke I like the idea of reading the essays too. One of my ebooks has some of them. And if we go by story rather than page number people with different editions can participate. So, all that to say “Yay!” 5y

jewright I have read “A Wagner Matinee” but none of the others, so I would love to read 1 or 2 a week. I‘m teaching a short story class in the spring, so I could add the best ones to my class. 5y

Louise @Graywacke @CarolynM I have the Vintage edition of her short stories and am looking forward to diving in with the group. I‘ve also had my eye in Not Under Forty and would be interested, as well as A‘s Bridge. The slower reading pace sounds good. End of January is a good starting time. Thanks, Dan! And Carolyn, glad to hear you‘ve introduced Cather to your husband‘s book group! Happy Holidays, dear Cather enthusiasts! ⛄️ 5y

batsy @Graywacke Sorry I forgot to reply to this earlier! Was reminded of it when I saw @Lcsmcat's post about the Collected Stories. I have the ebook of the Vintage edition and am so excited to join in! Late January sounds good to me 👍🏽 And grouping it by stories might be helpful in navigating the digital copy (as opposed to pages), if that's OK :) 5y

Graywacke @batsy a good reminder I need to figure out a schedule. 😳🙂 But also glad you‘re joining. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat @CarolynM @jewright @Louise @Currey @emilyhaldi some food for thought on this: https://interminablerambling.com/2019/04/11/11340/ 5y

Lcsmcat Thanks for sharing- that‘s an interesting article. 5y

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