Over by the River, and Other Stories

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

#whotheheckiswilliammaxwell

@Lcsmcat - the NY Times heard us. From this morning‘s paper.

Lcsmcat I just increased my TBR by a whole stack of books! Other than the short stories we read, I‘d only read the letters between Maxwell & Welty and

So Long, See You Tomorrow

Graywacke @Lcsmcat 🙂 3y

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Graywacke

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

pick

#whointheheckisWilliamMaxwell

Read with @Lcsmcat who helped me unpack much of this. Very gentle on the surface, maybe too gentle, with layers and layers. These stories were originally pub from 1941 to 1971, quite an interesting expanse of time. They are set in and around NY city, as American tourists in France and, notably in a fictionalized version if his birthplace in Lincoln, IL. He left me with the impression of a nice guy looking back.

Lcsmcat A fun buddy read! Thanks for sticking with it over all these weeks. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat thank you! 1st because it was on my tbr since 2006 and i had no idea what was in there. 2nd because it was fun to do as a buddy read made this book so much better 🙂 4y

BarbaraBB I can imagine buddyreading gives more depth to these stories. I read the highly praised tagged one but just went raving through and forgot about it.

So Long, See You Tomorrow

Lcsmcat @BarbaraBB Before this that novel and the tagged are the only things of his I had read. And it was his letters that made me seek out the novel. I highly recommend

What There Is to Say We Have Said: The Correspondence of Eudora Welty and William Maxwell

BarbaraBB @Lcsmcat Thank you, that sounds really interesting. Also because of Welty! 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The Thistles in Sweden: This was how I pictured those curtains. After spending 7 or 8 pages to describe a two-room apartment, Maxwell drops the sentence that undoes the cozy scene he set: “This is a secret she manages to keep from me so I can go on being happy.” How he can be so aware, and yet manage to write a sympathetic character who is so obviously clueless, is Maxwell‘s gift. I‘m not sure, though, how I feel about the happy ending. 👇🏻

Lcsmcat 👆🏻Was a child what Margaret wanted in order to be happy? Or would she have wanted to stay in the city had she been allowed to take the job she was offered? Maxwell seems clear on this point; she was happy. But I have a little doubt. I can‘t forget that our nameless MC has been “allowed to be happy” before. #whointheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke (edited) 4y

Graywacke Never came up in my notifications. 😕 4y

Graywacke My thoughts on finishing: This story bothered me a lot. Unreliable narrator, selfish, self-centered, strangles his partner‘s career and forces his wants on her. Refuses to acknowledge her feelings except in French!! (Today they would sit in the same room and text.) Didn‘t like that at all. (Had me thinking of Nabokov!) I did like the peak into 1950‘s Manhattan and these brownstones. 4y

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Graywacke Per your comments, I think she definitely wanted a child. (I‘m not sure he did or what he‘ll do when she has to focus on raising him without help or support. And, if I have that right, I‘m not sure what she will do once she realizes she‘s got this baby on her own. ??) Having said all that, I‘m not sure what would make her happy. She has already compromised a lot. So what are her wants now? 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat so, i like your analysis. 4y

Lcsmcat Odd that you didn‘t get the notification, but that‘s happened to me occasionally too. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat so, what did you think overall? I think we both got a lot out of it, and our chatting led to a lot of un-peeling and some awareness of the many layers in these stories. That was really fun and interesting. But, beyond that, i‘ve been reticent to express my overall feeling about the book. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat yes, I know, sometimes notifications seems not to work Strange. 4y

Lcsmcat They totally would have texted, in the same room! Great visual, that. 😀 I am putting my own biases on this, but the 1950s was such a “have a baby to fix your marriage/life/sanity” decade that I‘m not sure Margaret wanted one, or settled for what she was “allowed” to want. I found it interesting that everyone was named - from the cat Floribunda to every neighbor- except the narrator. 4y

Lcsmcat I know she‘ll raise it on her own, but that was what having a child in the 50s meant. But she‘s already raising him. ( The comment about his mother always being home when he got home and him expecting that to continue in his marriage comes to mind.) 🙄 (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat I‘m glad to have read these slowly, one a week. I think Maxwell is best appreciated that way. And getting to talk about them too. Overall, though, he might have been a better editor than writer? Although I liked the one novel of his I‘ve read. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat his excuse to keep her home!! 🤦🏻‍♂️...🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️ 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat I did kind of realize we didn‘t get his name, but I didn‘t think about how everyone else was named. I was worried his name might be William Maxwell. 😳🙂 Anyway, interesting. Thanks. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat a short story collection like this, not planned, collected after the fact - it‘s not going to have a full orchestral feel. So, it makes sense it feels lacking something overall. But - individually I thought he was naturally a gentle writer and prone to be too gentle (all subtlety). I find that tough. I‘m not surprised his novels come across better. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat I feel that if we had read this on our own, it would have slipped through without leaving much a mark. As it is, the second to last story stood out the most for me as what i liked. And the France stories stay most memorable in mind - although I can‘t exactly place why. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I love his gentle style, I just have a more difficult time forgiving the sins of the era from a 20th century writer than a 19th century one. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Again, my bias not his fault. When I think that he was the same age as my maternal grandparents I cut him a little more slack. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat side note - my hardback copy summarizes every story on the jacket flap! What was interesting though is that I struggled to place them. An example: “an adolescent boy trying to cope simultaneously with his awakening sexuality and with the childlike belief that the eye of God is upon him at all times.” 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat ah, interesting. He‘s too old fashioned? Personally I found that of interest 😆 He spans 40 years of writing here, and the temperament was set before all that started. He must have had an interesting relationship to his times in the 1970‘s. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke How interesting. I wished that my copy had individual publication dates. I‘d have liked to contemplate what order he wrote them in. It gives a list of dates from 1941 to 1984, with no clue which is which. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat the dates - i hate that! 😆 seriously though, it‘s such an impart of the writing and the author‘s development and how one story leads to how he handles another. And these stories span so much time! Why not share. 🙁😔 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It was interesting, just made me eye roll more than say, Trollope would. I read other articles besides the one I shared and a theme seemed to be his floating above the times. I think he was so mired in Lincoln as a writer that if he‘d tried to write about the civil rights movement, for example, it wouldn‘t have come across as authentic. He seemed to need to work through his childhood over and over. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat interesting. And I think we all do. At least, it makes sense to me. But, you know, writing about 1950‘s Lincoln during the Civil Rights era says something interesting about the Civil Right era. 4y

Graywacke Between Willa Cather, Nabokov and Osip Mandelstam, i‘ve read more books written during the 1930‘s than ever before. Not one word on the economy (or Hitler). I find that fascinating. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I think a lot of people, especially older people, wanted to go back to an earlier time that seemed easier. Although it probably seemed easier because they were kids then. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It is interesting that Cather tackled WWI but not Hitler. One could argue that the depression made less of an impact than the dust bowl on her part of the prairie, but also, hindsight is 2020, so what you‘re living through at the moment maybe is that much harder to write about. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Cather redirected herself really far away from contemporary times. From the trenches to childhood perspectives (MME) to the 1800‘s, to the 1600‘s !! Says something 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The Value Of Money: Draperville (aka Lincoln) is again the scene. Maxwell sets us up to side with the son against the father, and then stands it all on its head by the end. I was left with a feeling of quiet, slightly melancholy, calm, contentment. Not joy, not angst. Peace. #whotheheckwasWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke @Lcsmcat this was especially nice after reading the article you linked to. Thanks. Timely. I found myself very involved with all the kind a nothing, the normal stuff. It‘s interesting to me the end. I can relate with my own father to a degree. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat but I think mostly I liked the color - the town that is captured, that has something real to it - well, real memory, if you like. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It was nostalgic in a way, and I thought Maxwell used setting well to represent the father-son relationship. For example, talking about how the town was the same even as he noted the differences. The loss of the elms (and it‘s symbolism of loss of privacy) really struck me. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat the loss of Elms and all their beauty has always interested me. So i liked encountering it here so intimately. He also puts an interesting spin on it. (edited) 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The Gardens of Mont-Saint-Michele: Like an earlier story, this one deals with Americans out of their element in France, and the attempt to match one experience to another. Melancholy in feeling; the bike accident premonition; the rude waiter; the disappearance of the gardens - there‘s a lot going on here. #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke Our harmless maniac. He sounds a lot like Ray Ormsby in The Pilgrimage - American acting clueless and frustrated the real world doesn‘t correspond to their fantasy world. Although... 4y

Graywacke ... one key difference is that John is building on memories - maybe not accurate ones, but he‘s right in that the world has changed and gotten more crowded and there are negative consequences. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat this one gets to me in a silly way. As a kid I found Le Mont-Saint-Michel and its daily island/not island-ness fascinating and have always wanted to go there. My grandmother had a painting up on her wall that one of her ten older brothers painted and I always loved it. So, to imagine it in 1948 was very romantic to me. And then to “see” it in 1966 was soul crushing. It will be worse today... (edited) 4y

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Graywacke @Lcsmcat but John was kind of extremely foolish in the way he thought about this change, in his insistence that change itself shouldn‘t have happened. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke How interesting that this place has meaning for you. I haven‘t been, but my sister was just talking yesterday about that being the only place she‘s been that actually has quicksand. 4y

Lcsmcat John was foolish, and I get the frustrations and the feeling of not quite being your competent self. And maybe in 1966 progress felt always negative. But that‘s a function of memory‘s imperfection too, isn‘t it. You remember the quiet of a non mechanized world, and forget how hard it was to haul water and prepare food, etc. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat or how desperate France was in 1948, all these service people eager to please because of this 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat an update on the island, just for fun. See the 3 minute video, when you have a chance. https://www.euronews.com/amp/2019/05/16/mont-saint-michel-reclaims-island-like-c... 4y

LeahBergen It is one of the most eerily beautiful places I‘ve ever been. I‘d return in a heartbeat. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat the quick sand always fascinated me. 🙂 @LeahBergen jealous 🙂 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke cool video! I‘d love to time-travel back to see it in earlier times. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I found an interesting article about Maxwell from 1995, if you‘re interested. https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/books/a-modest-scrupulous-happy-man.html 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat thanks for this. Terrific article. Almost all new to me. 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Haller‘s Second Home: I‘m starting to think the connecting thread, if you will, for all these stories, is disconnection. This week‘s story is full of characters alone in a crowd. Francis at boot camp, Haller at the Mendelsohn‘s, Abbie as the only girl, and the poor little kitten, the runt of the litter. (Reneé, although alone, seems less so, but maybe only because we saw less of her.) #whotheheckwasWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke Hadn‘t thought of it that way. Interesting. I was thinking of the repeated theme of a non-family member entering a family‘s home. (edited) 4y

Graywacke I liked the oblique take on WWII. We don‘t even know there‘s a war until something that happened 11 years ago is given a date of 1932. (Also, Halley was about the same age as my grandparents) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Yes, the outsider entering a family is there in most of the stories! But I think, looking at all the stories we‘ve read so far, there‘s some sort of aloneness. 4y

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Lcsmcat @Graywacke To your WWII point, I found it fascinating that it was such a minor part. Most WWII fiction would have you believe the war was constantly “the most important thing.” (Haller would be about the age of one of my aunts, but my mom‘s the real baby of her family. She was 6 when Pearl Harbor was bombed.) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat an artifact of everyone‘s self concern? (You have me wondering about that kitten) 4y

Graywacke I meant the loneliness. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Maxwell has an interesting take on NYC life. It‘s not the whole world thinks or acts like his characters. They are each unique, but also there is a commonality to them, to the things they take for granted, the perspectives they accept as universal to their world. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Well, he is writing what he knows, I suppose. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Wondering about the kitten how? (The photo is from the internet, not one of mine.) I saw the casual mentions of “we‘ll probably kill it in the morning” as how each of them thought others were thinking about them. Or maybe only Haller thought that. I‘m not sure. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat about the kitten - I don‘t know! That‘s what‘s weird. There must be a reason he put s spineless kitten the story to prominently. Is Haller spineless? Is it a reflection of his (non) courting? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke That‘s an interpretation I hadn‘t thought of. (Good to have a male perspective. I saw his courting as stalkerish.) The kitten did stick out, and make me wonder why Maxwell put it in. He was an editor; he wouldn‘t have left in unimportant details. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat stalkerish... to me that implies she doesn‘t want Haller around or isn‘t aware of his interests. But I think she does and is. She likes that he‘s interested. I find it odd that he‘s not family or singularly a super-close friend of anyone, but warmly welcomed, but I don‘t think it implies he‘s forcing or sneaking his way in. I think it‘s the welcome that allows him in. ... 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat as I‘m typing that I‘m realizing this whole story is a courtship gone wrong. We don‘t pick up on it immediately. But he‘s there for her birthday with a gift. He has a purpose. Yet, she says no by putting the present aside. Also the music is unknown, won‘t play, and his presence is overshadowed by the brother‘s arrival. It‘s subtly a very bad evening for him. (maybe ??) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke You can be a stalker when your object is aware of your intentions. But I‘ll grant he doesn‘t quite rise to the level of stalker. Thus the “ish.” But I stand my ground that she doesn‘t want his attentions. She might be willing to accept friendship but he won‘t stop there. She is the object (word choice intentional) of his attentions. No one wants to be an object. 4y

Lcsmcat I think Mr. and Mrs. M are much more instrumental in creating the welcome for him than Abbie is. And yes, it‘s a bad evening for him. He thought he would get credit for Francis telephoning, and instead he shows up in person and Renée gets the credit. 4y

Lcsmcat Don‘t put too much weight in Sibelius being unknown. At the time he was a modern composer, not the warhorse he is now. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat of course they want to marry Abbie off and will welcome any bachelor they approve of. ... wait, who‘s Sibelius? How do you know this? (Or, like Sweeney Todd, is it how do I not know this? 🙂) 4y

Lcsmcat I‘m afraid it‘s a bit like Sweeney Todd. 😀 Sibelius was a Finnish composer. His “big hit” was Finlandia, which you will probably recognize if you pull up a video on YouTube, but he wrote orchestral music in the early part of the 20th century. And I know this because I am a classically trained musician. @Graywacke (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Can we have our next discussion on Sunday for this? I‘ve got family stuff this weekend. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat no problem. Enjoy (or good luck, or both, whichever is more appropriate) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Thanks. It‘s fun stuff - my mother‘s 85th. It just takes more wrangling because of COVID. 4y

Graywacke Oh wow, how nice. (edited) 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The Final Report: Once again Maxwell uses an outsider (sort of) to tell the story. Once I realized that the narrator was not the executor I was left wondering why he looked up the eponymous report. Was Aunt Cameron a horder? Or just someone who got too frail to take care of things? Why did she fight with Dr. Cameron? More questions than answers for me. #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Lcsmcat Two things that resonated with me. I had a playhouse made of piano boxes (although mine was not fancy enough to have a door and windows.) And, the misunderstanding of the picture of the man dreaming of horses. My grandparents had a print called After the Hunt or some such. It was fox hunters having a drink after, and there was a bench with a cloak draped across it in such a way that, as a child, I was convinced it was a girl, face down, weeping. 4y

Lcsmcat It was years before I figured that one out. 4y

Graywacke Love your picture. This was a puzzle for me. I mean I understand that on the surface it‘s about a life and all it‘s internal unknowns and vanities. And I understand it‘s more about the author‘s nostalgia than the this lonely woman. And I understand there a ritual to it - an elegy (“to all the lonely people “ - thanks Beatles). But I wasn‘t able to go anywhere else 4y

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Graywacke I think Aunt Cameron was a hoarder, driven by a reduced income life. And I don‘t know why this narrator looked her up. Nostalgia? And I‘m guessing she hated her husband because of some bitter personal failure - marriages... maybe what he presented to the world wore off in private...or was exposed in intimacy. And I love your story about the picture. Here she might have been stomped by her dreams. ?? 4y

Cathythoughts Great picture 4y

Lcsmcat @graywacke I had a hard time “going anywhere else” too. I agree that Dr C May have been different to Mrs C than to the world, but we didn‘t SEE that, or even really get told. I like your interpretation of the nightmare picture. Good symbolism-catching. 😀 I‘m afraid this was not my favorite of the collection. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Yes, good point. We didn‘t see any dark side of him, but I‘m not sure we saw any sign of what disappointed her either. I thought maybe he was getting at all the things we don‘t see - inside minds especially. I think we can extrapolate to in private. But either way, it‘s specifically what is not open for taking in and analyzing. Also I might have just missed something 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat I would like to skip this week. I‘m traveling and my copy is fragile. Is that ok? 🙁 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Of course, safe travels! 4y

Graywacke Thanks! ☺️ 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Young Francis Whitehead: Maxwell uses the device, technique, frame? (I can‘t decide) of the outsider observing family dynamics. Miss Avery, not Red. As with Arnold in The Patterns Of Love we know very little about her, but she is the first character we meet. Thoughts? #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke Hi. Lots. The set up of the scene, more countryside vs City, the judgment on the pains of the privileged, the selfishness breading selfishness, observed by a tailor who is also, actually, selfish - as she is concerned with getting out of there in a reasonable amount of time. He‘s playing a lot of games. 4y

Graywacke I really liked the paradise/underworld scene setup. They‘re guarded by a loving unwanted Irish Setter version of Cerberus - an adorable version 🙃 An then there is the inside of the house, lush with paradise comforts, and full of Easter anticipation, yet only unnutritious candy to eat. (It made me think of Persephone and the pomegranate seed - if Ms. Avery had accepted one candy - it‘s like a threat) ... 4y

Graywacke It‘s all paradise on the surface and hell just underneath. The Hotel California. 4y

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Graywacke Also, nice picture. Love Irish Setters, one of the most beautiful dogs in existence 4y

Lcsmcat I think Red was my favorite character- and I‘m a cat person. 😀 I like your Persephone reference. It really did seem as if Miss Avery could get stuck if she wasn‘t careful! I didn‘t see her as selfish so much as not interested in these particular people. She wanted to maintain the professional relationship (checking out her handiwork on his clothing when Francis came in) but not a social one. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Red was the most likable character 🙂 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The French Scarecrow: The full poem the epigraph can be found here: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/john-mouldy/
Gerald, Edmund, Dorothy, even Mrs. Ryan have deep underlying fears. Maxwell seems to be defining the characters almost by what their fear is. Thoughts? #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

TheSpineView I liked this poem! It speaks of loneliness and to be forgotten after your usefulness is gone. A good analogy for old age. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Thanks for looking up and linking to this poem. I loved this story. It doesn‘t end, but travels on off the page into a wonderment of our minds. 4y

Graywacke It‘s interesting what we fear. I admit all their fears seemed quite rational and relatable to me. It does make breaking down per character a little more difficult. They could have an issue...or they could be my version of normal 🙂 4y

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Lcsmcat Oh I thought they were all versions of normal, even Gerald who presumably thought he wasn‘t or he wouldn‘t be paying for an analyst. But Edmund‘s were the hardest to suss out, so perhaps deeper? 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat it was interesting to me how the countryside development transition is a theme. We saw this two stories ago too - city-country contrast. The scarecrow is a ghost of the past and a maybe a dark prophet of the fear of change. He maybe holds a revenge element, or a hint of the land‘s animosity in him. (Goodness, where did this comment come from? I just meant to say something on Edmund...) I agree, Edmund as scarecrow begs some consideration. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Maxwell had a home in the “country” as well as a place in NYC, and given the post-war, cars-are-a-thing time frame, he probably did see a lot of change in that direction. Edmund‘s fears were, I thought, of loss. The land he lost, the first wife, the fear of losing the child. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat some sense of defeat, like the scarecrows head on its chest. Although... oddly not acknowledged by him. 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

What Every Boy Should Know: This story did not end up where I thought it would. How about you? With the first sentence, “Shortly before his twelfth birthday, Edward Gellert‘s eyes were opened and he knew that he was naked.” I was thinking in a totally different “boy grows up” direction. You? #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke Hi. I‘m find I‘m getting more detached from Maxwell, and becoming more critic. Uh oh. Anyway, this judgy moral of dank capitalism was hard on me. ... 4y

Graywacke But... I did like the opening. Had no idea where he was going with that, so I guess a morality tale with a bicycle is one option! 🙂 4y

Graywacke And he carries it through, that beginning theme. If you characterize this one as a story on masturbation and capitalism, it begins to sound a lot more entertaining... (edited) 4y

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Lcsmcat @Graywacke 😂 The opening had me thinking Edward was going to come out as gay, not realize the world was unfair and Daddy couldn‘t fix everything! 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Maxwell is certainly more concerned with character, and internal character at that, than he is with plot. I enter totally into the feelings of his characters even when I‘m left thinking “what was that about?” at the end. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat That‘s the point I would like to find, just hanging with the characters. Not there now, but I can be patient. This story has some lingering affect. I‘m walking my dog this morning thinking about the poor boy losing his bicycle. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat hopefully not going too far, but it occurred to me there is a parallel between his masturbation and his delivery boss‘s power trip when talking to him after the strike (paraphrasing: we were going to expand your route...oh, but don‘t worry about that now.) Might even be a central point in the story, could even be something he wrote after his own boss pissed him off. 🙂 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I don‘t think you‘re going to far, maybe not far enough. 😀 As I‘ve thought about it more, it seems to be about powerlessness. His against his father, boss, and biology; his mother‘s against her husband; even his father‘s against the bike-crusher. 4y

Graywacke Capitalism has a fundamental power element to it. It‘s essentially a loot and pillage economy, with some natural balances for economic sustenance (but also a minimalist approach to common necessity) What I‘m trying to say is I agree, this is about power play. And good observation on how it plays out with his parents and the impoverished neighbor (although... 4y

Graywacke ... we don‘t know what happened between his dad and the bike smasher. I suspect his dad realized they were poor and covered for them in his own imperfect way. The poverty gets only the merest implication, but i think that element was there.) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke You give the father more credit than I did! I assumed the man denied it was him and, with no proof, the father failed in his mission. He (the father) didn‘t give off strong compassion vibes. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat no! Agree, not compassionate. Although there is some level of humanity in him - it‘s a bit of a puzzle to place him, for me. I appreciated that. But I think you‘re closer in, with less wishful thinm. 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The Patterns Of Love: Maxwell paints interesting characters, and does an excellent job of showing interconnectedness. Arnold puzzled me a little. What is his relationship to the family and why is he such a regular yet infrequent visitor? #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke Rain check. I‘ll read this tomorrow. Promise. 😁 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke And I was fretting about posting late. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat I procrastinated and now have July 4 plans. (Safe ones, i hope!) Oops 4y

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Lcsmcat @Graywacke Enjoy then, and I hope they are indeed safe. 4y

Graywacke I read this morning. (Took me all of 15 minutes. ☺️😕... ) Still processing 4y

Graywacke On interconnectedness and the patterns of love and all those animals and maybe our covid world - it all leaves me thinking of a soup of exchanged germs. 🙂 Just tells you I‘m a city-boy, like Arnold. Satan was easily my favorite animal - name and personality. (“Call Satan!”) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I actually met someone with a Weimaraner named Satan. 😀 4y

Graywacke No clue what Arnold‘s relationship was. He didn‘t seem like family. And, they are all so trusting, he seemed more like a long time acquaintance who uses their home as a vacation, and who treat him as a visiting pet to embrace loosely, like the lost chicken. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat my next dog... 😆 Actually we have named our three dogs after spices. Nutmeg and Mace (Macey) were are first ones. Pepper is our current canine loon. Oh, had she been names Satan. Brilliant! 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It wasn‘t the animals that stressed me out (I grew up around farm animals) but the sibling battles. (Probably because my supposedly grownup children are mid-feud right now. 🙄) 4y

Graywacke So, Anna Karenina on the shelf. A Room of One‘s Own inspired the extra little cottage - which obviously wasn‘t going to work as Wolff intended. Thoughts on these mentions? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It could make interesting conversation- “I saw the most interesting flower when I bent over to pick up Satan‘s poop.” 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Anyone who could read Anna Karenina during a visit is staying too long! 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat sorry about your kids spat. Can be more serious when they‘re older. The sibling rivalry - love and hate. My kids do this - they‘re 15 and 13... 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat true! On AK 😆 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke The two feuding are 25 and 29. Old enough to know better. 4y

Graywacke The theme of the city and small town is the one i‘ll take away. Arnold doesn‘t here the birds, doesn‘t get the soup of love, 4y

Graywacke (Oops - hit send while typing ) 4y

Graywacke Anyway, Arnold clearly lives in a cold bitter compassionless city. This kind if idealized family is so open and trusting and warm. Nature everywhere. No turning away 4y

Graywacke (*hear the birds...) (edited) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Satan is so rich with possibilities. “Good Satan!”. “Has anyone fed Satan?” “Go let Satan out.” ... (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat There was the country/city dichotomy for sure. But, given the title, I focused more on the way whatever happened to one member affected all the others. And yet Arnold is so disconnected from it. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat yes. He‘s not actually part of the family. Just a visitor. 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

The Pilgrimage: I‘m not sure what to say. I was viscerally uncomfortable through most of it. I felt from the first that something would go wrong - although I confess to thinking they wouldn‘t get there in time. Then Ray‘s behavior was so cringeworthy. I could never have gone back! And yet they get their “happy ending” even if it is proved to be based on wrong assumptions. Pic is the Hôtel du Domino in Périgueux. #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell

Graywacke

Graywacke Thanks for the picture. I just finished. I think Maxwell was having fun, but I also think I missed a lot... (edited) 4y

Graywacke It‘s the standard Americans being Americans in France. So there is mystery and misunderstanding and a cultural divide that is impossible to bridge because Ray and Ellen aren‘t open to taking it in. They‘re too focused on trying to match or better their friends expectations. I admit I found that funny and I got interested to see the nature of their cultural clash... (edited) 4y

Graywacke Ok...I‘ve begun typing away. Maybe I better slow down a bit? Well, I have two more longish thoughts in mind. 4y

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Graywacke Thought 2: I was interested in the title, how they are making a religious pilgrimage to a restaurant! And only in effort to up the Jones. The religious aspect turned to something so silly and empty was also playful for me. The whole spiritual encounter is corrupted. No matter how special their experience, they weren‘t going to enjoy it. They were too busy checking off their list and trying to uphold their dignity (by making fools of themselves.) 4y

Graywacke Thought 3: but the movie theater really throws me. I don‘t know what that means or how to figure it out. Something in there Ray and Ellen missed and I missed it too. And that leaves me feeling very American. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke To take your ideas in reverse order, I thought the theater showed how blind Ray & Ellen were. They rhapsodized over how this was a different place, from another age, but it wasn‘t. They just saw what they wanted to see. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke On the title, I didn‘t feel like they were trying to up the Jones so much as see the things they were “supposed” to see. Definitely checking things off their list. Like a kind of religious requirement, rather than something they felt called to. 4y

Lcsmcat What I meant by “getting their happy ending” was their image of France was confirmed by the fact that they missed the crowd coming out of the movie. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat My brain ties your comment about the happy ending and one upping the Jones together. But maybe I‘m wrong about that second part. By not seeing the theater and giving their social commentary on the French, they are, of course, convincing themselves of their superiority on a silly false pretense - as silly as their actions were in the restaurant. But the jones... i‘m stuck. Hang on on that one. I‘ll try to explain (then maybe see my error) 4y

Graywacke I get the list part. What gets me is they are going here to fulfill the Richardson‘s promise. There is expectation they do that and they won‘t be able to be honest about their eventual failure. They‘ll lose face. They‘re going to have to lie or embellish. (This is a part 1) 4y

Graywacke (Slight insecurity. You are ok with all my posts here, right? 😁) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Of course! I look forward to these discussions! 4y

Lcsmcat I agree that they could not be honest about their failure, but I took it as a sign of their insecurity. They can‘t even enjoy dinner if it‘s not in the “right” restaurant! 4y

Graywacke Right. So my thought is their purpose was to come home and say, hey Richardson‘s, we had a great trip, saw all this stuff and also ate at your restaurant. (The actual phrase would be, “thanks so much for that restaurant recommendation.). That‘s what i mean by one-upping them. (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat I mean, if they were more confident they could “lie or embellish” and say they had a BETTER dinner than their friends. But they don‘t believe better exists. So I see the movie bit not as feeling superior to the French so much as inferior. The French of their imagination seemed superior to me, but maybe that‘s because dancing in the square appeals more than watching a movie. 😀 (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat Ray made me uncomfortable because he was the stereotypical Loud American. And I‘ve traveled with people like that, and get so embarrassed. I just wanted him to hush and eat. 4y

Graywacke So, as we‘re talking I‘m thinking about blindness. How many major sites did they see that day? Surely they didn‘t actually “see” anything, they just accomplished a lot. Which leads to... 4y

Graywacke Plato‘s cave. We‘re all blind, but they are manifesting it in the cultural blindness. And, the theater seems appropriate for a Plato‘s cave theme - although that‘s pushing it since they don‘t actually go in. 4y

Graywacke Ray - stereotypically loud _unseeing_ American? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Right?!?! I mean, they were pushing so hard, on roads that were not the most scenic, just to get to this “perfect” place. And they missed so many opportunities along the way. They might even have found roast chicken with truffles if they‘d stopped in some other town! 4y

Graywacke (Me going overboard on Plato) For them, the darkness of the cave is the French. They aren‘t able to see around them because of cultural barriers. They‘re trying. But they‘re just getting a shadow of what‘s available... (because they don‘t know any other way to look) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat yes - exactly. 4y

Graywacke Truffles everywhere, and they missed them. ... I‘m hungry now... 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke They missed more than truffles. The one authentic experience they had was the unplanned- dancing in the square - but they couldn‘t let go long enough to have more of those moments because of FOMO. 4y

Graywacke Yes, FOMO. Perfect 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat This has been a fun, thanks. Ready for next week. 🙂 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I can‘t wait to see what Mr. Maxwell has in store for us next. 4y

Graywacke I just noticed. Our hashtag switched from “is” to “was”. (Worse, it was is 🙂) was #whotheheckiswilliammaxwell , now it‘s #whotheheckwaswilliammaxwell 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke I can never remember hashtags! I usually have to have Litsy open on 2 devices to make sure I get them right. Guess I evolved it without noticing! Shall we evolve it back? Or edit old posts? 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat we probably should chose one. You know that trick where when you can‘t decide and so you flip a coin and choose that. And then, if you feel bad, you know you should make the other choice? I doesn‘t help me here... 😕 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke 😂 4y

Lcsmcat “is” has 1 less character than “was.” Seems like enough of a reason to me. I edited it. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat perfect evaluation. 🙂Maybe next buddy read i‘ll try for a shorter tag... 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Story 2: Trojan Women. Quite a bit shorter than last week‘s story. Another exploration of unhappy family life, but also a social commentary on power - who has it and what the less powerful can do. Hints that Mildred was physically abused, not just unhappy. Ada Belle - powerful? Oppressed in a different way? And what about Virginia and her “innocent eyes?” #whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke No more 50 page stories. 🙂 I‘m going to read it today. So, I‘ll be back! 4y

Graywacke Power, definitely, and spoils. 4y

Graywacke In 2016 I read a bunch of classic Greek plays, including Euripides Women of Troy (or, The Trojan Women) I‘m going to post my entire review here, because it‘s an interesting dialogue between here and there. 4y

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Graywacke Review post 1: The Women of Troy 415 bce
A really sad play set in Troy just after its fall. The Trojan women have lost their luxury, their sons and husbands and any hope for the future. They are to become slaves. Hecabe, queen of Troy, morning the loss of her husband and most of her children, including Hector, is the focus as she looks ahead to her future life of slavery. She is assigned to Odysseus. 4y

Graywacke Review post 2: Cassandra, not yet raped, and knowing all that will come ahead, makes an appearance, as does Andromache, who still has her and Hector's son. Then Helen appears. Her situation is in notable contrast to the hopeless defeated lives around her. Helen still has a future. Her speech is striking for its lack of guilt. But her words can be read in contrasting ways, making her the most interesting part of the play. 4y

Graywacke Review post 3: The Women of Troy was written in the shadow of the Battle of Melos in 415 bce. Melos had tried to stay neutral between Athens and Sparta. Athens attacked and had every man who could bear arms executed and enslaved the women and children. 4y

Graywacke In this light, there is a drawn out war between husband and wife. The wife has finally lost, and has lost her home and wealth and become a dependent. And her dependents are lost with her. And Virginia is the contrast, in line with Helen, well, maybe. 4y

Graywacke What‘s funny to me is without that title, the Greek echo is lost, and it‘s a simpler story of small town divorce, racism, sexism, parenting and young childhood - contrasted with a 🐍. 🙂 (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke The title does have that echo, but I don‘t see Mildred totally in that light. The mention of the bruises makes me think she took what power she had - the power to leave - but couldn‘t get any farther than that. Was she then made a slave? Or was she Cassandra? I‘ll have to think on that. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke The bit with Virginia and the snake I had to go back and reread. Did Mildred actually see the snake, or did Virginia successfully suggest it to her to protect V‘s hiding place? The “betrayal” of Virginia, rescuing her father‘s gift from the fire & hiding it from her mom, like taking sides with the oppressor. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat i don‘t see her as a Cassandra. Was she slave? Hmm. I can see that in a few ways. A slave to dependence on financial support, for example. A slave to motherhood. But I see a lighter touch. It‘s not the slavery itself, or the spoils, but the loss of everything, especially of station. From queen to refuse, in societal hierarchy. (But probably I should have read Euripides again before going into all this) 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat was there really a 🐍? Great question. What if there isn‘t? Or, worse, what if there is?! 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat adding to my comment on loss of station - there is a parallel of response to loss and consequences - not the specific loss and consequences or the specific loss - but a loss and a response 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke And the loss of community, when the other women turned against her. I definitely see the loss. 4y

Graywacke So...I didn‘t pick up on Ms Gellert‘s domestic abuse. I only got it here from your comments. 4y

Graywacke Thinking about Ada Belle. I want to ask your thoughts on her, but first I should tell a little of my perspective. I‘m a little uncomfortable with how he used her. I mean she‘s a great character, but I think he used her race and position in society for some literary points. Any thoughts on that or her? 4y

Lcsmcat On the abuse, p. 58, “Unless the tragic heroine can produce new stories, new black-and-blue marks, new threats and outrages that exceed in dramatic quality the old ones, it is better that she stay, no matter how unhappily, with her husband.” @Graywacke (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke On Adah Belle, I share your discomfort, but feel like her strength comes through in spite of that. It might be a bit “noble savage” stereotype, but it‘s still a stereotype. Nevertheless, I was drawn to her as a character. She seemed like the most grownup person there. 4y

Graywacke Thanks for highlighting the quote - the wisdom of fear. Very subtle, maybe. 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Adah (i missed the ‘h‘ - sigh) I thought he humanizes her when she comes the house and has weak moment where she is exhausted and drinks the water. And I agree she is clearly the adult on the room. But that opening scene - the polite racism on the train. The purpose isn‘t that racism itself, but how it parallels with Ms. Gellert‘s outcast social status (also it sets the tension in the atmosphere). I guess i‘m mixed.... 👇 (edited) 4y

Graywacke It works, but he‘s making a little deal with the devil to make it work. 4y

Graywacke Side note: Adah is introduced as “a large tranquil colored women”. Until race was made evident again, I read that as “tranquil-colored” and spent a moment wondering what that meant. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Perhaps the “polite racism” paralleling Mildred‘s ostracism is as much a comment against racism as it is against the victim blaming of beaten wives? Just a thought to ponder. “Tranquil-colored” made me laugh. 😂 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke And, not to obsess about the abuse, but without it Mildred is a spoiled rich girl, running away because she didn‘t get her way. With it in my mind, she‘s struggling for survival of her “self” so the semi-catatonic behavior makes more sense. It‘s taken everything she has just to get out. 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Over By the River: The cover on both our editions is by Brookie Maxwell, daughter of the author. Having read his letters to Eudora Welty, I feel almost like I know their relationship when she was a little girl. So at first I saw Cindy as her. But as the story went on, I couldn‘t read it as autobiographical. But his family life certainly informed his ability to write children! Impressions? #whotheheckiswilliammaxwell @Graywacke

Graywacke Oh dear, several. I should have written them down, but they‘re all from different mindsets. One: NY City. What time period? He lived there at least 40 years when this came out. But how many were full of taxis? Two: the main character is the emotionally absent father and that felt real to me. I expect there was an autobiographical element there. Three: the cacophony of atmospheric stuff. ... 4y

Graywacke (four: whose idea was it to save one day for the 50-page story. Oops 😊) 4y

Graywacke But mainly I really enjoyed it. There are elements if Grace Paley, I thought. 4y

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Lcsmcat @Graywacke The time period baffles me too. The copyrights on the title page range from the 40s to the 80s. It‘s because I have read his letters, with all the mentions of his kids and their life in the city, particularly Brookie, that I don‘t think it‘s autobiographical. 4y

Lcsmcat The surrealism/ dream-like states stood out the most for me. The image of Cindy seeing the tiger disappear into the air conditioner, and then Iris and George talking about the A/C needing repair. 4y

Graywacke I was trying to decide what to make of Cindy and her visions and fears. It was interesting to layer her apparently irrational fears them with some serious worries. As if she was manifesting real dangers in her imagination. 4y

Graywacke As the autobiographical aspect, i was thinking more along the lines a working father. He doesn‘t think about his family 9-5, and that routine drives him more and more distant from feelings of any kind. He becomes an emotional washout. I thought there could be an autobiographical element, could also be based observation. Seems a very intimate observation. (edited) 4y

Graywacke Also, tell me more about his letters. What did you read? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke There was a definite feeling of dislocation (which made me wonder if it was written late 50s early 60s) with George and pretty much all the characters. Cindy was definitely dealing with her real fears in the nightmares. And Iris with her “servant problem” until she found Bessie. But even then there was the awkwardness. So that dated it to me on the earlier side. I don‘t think of middle class families having line-in “help” past the 60s. 4y

Lcsmcat About the letters, he and Welty were both avid rose gardeners and shared not only tips, but traded plants back and forth. (The Maxwells has a “country” house as well as their city apartment.) And he was always sharing stories of doing things with the girls and Brookie‘s progress with her art. And they traded book recommendations, of course. He was her editor, but they were also very close friends. 4y

Graywacke Cool about Eudora Welty. I have never read her. Thinking about the rest. We open with the “false amiability” of the doormen. Then immediately time - once plentiful now lost. Dislocation and time loss seemed to have a relationship. It echoes in George‘s 9-5 job. Still pondering overwhelmed Iris, and jealous-of-sibling Laurie and Bessie...was she illiterate or just living on a different plane? (edited) 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Oh, you must add Welty to your TBR! Start with The Optimists Daughter, or Why I Live at the PO. Although you can‘t go wrong with any of her work. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke Laurie kind of gets short shrift, doesn‘t she? And I admit to wanting to say to Iris, “You have a maid, you don‘t have a job - get over yourself!” But then my better self takes over. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat Iris is a curiosity. She‘s clearly busy, but not with a job, or kids at home. It‘s the kind of little things that end up taking all days. And, she doesn‘t get appreciation for it, not even real affection, since George is an empty glass. She also doesn‘t get to really express herself 4y

Graywacke But - those sleepless nights with kids that are supposed to be old enough to sleep all night - phew. I don‘t miss them. 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke You‘re much kinder than I. 😀 The lack of sleep would definitely get to you. I do not miss that either. And you‘re right that neither George nor the kids seem to appreciate her. 4y

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

I‘m reading with my cat, too. But not a tiger. 🐅#whotheheckisWilliamMaxwell @Graywacke

Dcueto What a beauty 4y

Lcsmcat @Dcueto Thanks. He‘s my best reading buddy. 4y

Graywacke He is beautiful. Maybe half 🐅 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke We used to joke that his mamma was a mountain lion, because he was never small. 4y

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Graywacke

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Lazy Saturday afternoon. Just started this, buddy-reading with @Lcsmcat (the 1st 14 pages are wonderful)
#whotheheckiswilliammaxwell

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Lcsmcat

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Mini #bookhaul from ThriftBooks this afternoon. We missed our loosely-planned buddy read last January @Graywacke , shall we try to reschedule?

CindyMyLifeIsLit I‘m reading Abigail by Szabo right now. Really enjoying it! 4y

Graywacke Yes! When works for you? 4y

Lcsmcat @CindyMyLifeIsLit I‘ve wanted to read it for a long time, thought I‘d read it in French, then gave in and ordered it in English 4y

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Lcsmcat @Graywacke I‘m game whenever you are. I‘m working, but not doing anything else. 😀 4y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat 🙂 well Cather (Shadows on the Rock) is July, but I haven‘t worked out the dates yet. Should we do August? Is that too long a wait? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke It‘s not - I‘m in no danger of running out of things to read 😆 And if you don‘t want to interrupt the Cather momentum we could spread the 12 stories across 12 weeks or something. 4y

Graywacke That‘s not a bad idea. hmm. Now I‘m tempted to just get started... ?? A story every Sunday, starting tomorrow? 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke You‘re on. 👍🏻 4y

Graywacke Pondering hashtags. I kind of like #whotheheckiswilliammaxwell 4y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke 😂 love it! 4y

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Graywacke

Over by the River, and Other Stories | William Maxwell

Day 5: #7days7covers No explanation. #covercrush

@RaimeyGallant

Lcsmcat I love his work! Stacked. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat There‘s a story behind this book, but part of the story is I haven‘t read it yet. If you‘re up for a buddy read sometime... (I‘ve read short fiction by him in anthologies) 5y

Lcsmcat Sure - just not in October, I‘m overcommitted 😀 I learned of him through the tagged book, which I highly recommend.

What There Is to Say We Have Said: The Correspondence of Eudora Welty and William Maxwell

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Graywacke @Lcsmcat pencil this one in for January? 😶😁 (emphasis on the pencil with eraser). This other book sounds terrific. 5y

Lcsmcat @Graywacke January it is. And you should read the other, although it will explode your TBR, because of course they talk about other books in addition to their own. 5y

Graywacke @Lcsmcat 👌 I‘ll check with you again between here and there 5y

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