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Sophie's World
Sophie's World: A Novel About the History of Philosophy | Jostein Gaarder
One day Sophie comes home from school to find two questions in her mail: "Who are you?" and "Where does the world come from?" Before she knows it she is enrolled in a correspondence course with a mysterious philosopher. Thus begins Jostein Gaarder's unique novel, which is not only a mystery, but also a complete and entertaining history of philosophy.
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BookBr
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This book gave me so many new ways to look at the world, and people, and how we think and what we are made of. It‘s a truly fascinating and deeply meaningful read.

#SundayFunday @ozma.of.oz

ozma.of.oz I‘ve had this one on my TBR for years now. I‘ll have to bump it up! Thanks for sharing! 2mo
10 likes1 comment
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anushareflects
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Mehso-so

Sophie‘s world is part introduction to western philosophy and part fantasy - I love the philosophy and hate hate hate the fantasy. So it‘s somewhere between a pick and so-so. It‘s a very good book for those looking to gently foray into philosophy ie learn key lessons from noted thinkers through history. The fantasy element interspersed within it is plain terrible (to me).

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GingerAntics
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Pickpick

What a trip. This book has some really strange parts to the plot, but it‘s still well worth the read. It will definitely get you thinking in different ways. This is a book that certainly harbours open mindedness and free thinking, even rejection of parents‘ ideas and beliefs without proper examination, so I can certainly see why this book has been banned and challenged by some groups.

TheBookHippie Seriously loved it! 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it was so fun to discuss these chapters with everyone. I‘m not sure what I would have made of this book without those discussions. I certainly would never have figured out that garden party. 1y
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TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I so agree! We needed each other for this read! 1y
ravenlee It was definitely a different experience from my first reading. The slower schedule, and the discussions, made a much greater impact. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee this book is certainly an experience. I can‘t imagine trying to figure this book out on its own. I commend your brilliance in reading this on your own. 1y
kspenmoll The whole experience was just wonderful! 1y
17 likes7 comments
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit To expose and explore the foundations of philosophy? 1y
kspenmoll Agree with @Chrissyreadit but also add he was hoping to reach a teen age audience- give them access to philosophy in a way that might intrigue them. 1y
TheBookHippie I agree with above. Get us all thinking but especially young people. 1y
GingerAntics What all of you said. I can‘t think of anything I could add to this. 1y
ravenlee @kspenmoll hit the nail on the head. 1y
9 likes5 comments
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit This reminds me a little of the concept of quantum physics, some concepts and constructs are understood naturally and others are so challenging- is the difficulty in the educator or the student? 1y
kspenmoll Discussion of philosophy concepts etc. a must when exploring it as a project-I guess it is inherent or the nature of the beast(beast for me).I have learned so much from our discussions.I feel I am a perpetual student. See I am floundering- not sure I am answering the question! 1y
TheBookHippie I‘m such a student in all things. I read most books this way. To learn more than just the words written. 1y
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TheBookHippie Philosophy can be learned in as much as how to have an open mind to explore text I think. 🤷🏻‍♀️ you could not possibly ever say I know it all and it be true. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll naw, you‘re doing great. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit it might be a little of both? I never understood math because I didn‘t understand one way to do math. Once I had a teacher who taught me that there are many routs to the same answer, just like there are many routs to the same destination across town, math suddenly clicked for me. I think for some subjects we naturally see the different paths/understand even complex concepts, and others we need more guidance. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie totally agree. I enjoy being a student (accept the stress of finals 😂🤣😂) and my mind is constantly looking for something new to explore. I‘ve always been that way. There is just no way one person could ever know anything. I think you‘d need a little of everyone on Earth, and even then all those people together STILL wouldn‘t know everything. I think that‘s the fun of learning stuff. I‘m a little weird like that, though. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics AS AM I. Wierdos unite. 1y
ravenlee I don‘t know that reading a book is a philosophical project, although writing one sure is. I find myself agreeing with Socrates the more I read - all I know is that I know nothing. And I‘m so glad all the weirdos found each other here! It‘s a good place to be. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie we are the weirdo support group, but I think dead philosophers society just sounds better. 1y
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit I definitely have a few I want to explore further and there were concepts I had never thought about before. I do see a process where philosophy seems to be a significant product of some types of culture and experience. I see this in psychology and counseling too- how you relate to treatment and the why if different forms of mental health/illness has a lot to do with culture. Now we know ACE scores underly so much of it! 1y
kspenmoll I was a history major- social & intellectual history. Mostly western & asian.my son was a history/philosophy major so I read many of history texts.Of course cultures, social history etc were included. So I came to this book familiar with those areas- I looked up more modern philosophers as we went along & have some books from my son to read. This study enriched me on so many levels! (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie I liked all the women mentioned -learning about hildegard von bingen was a gift. Most I knew but studying them again and more in depth and in discussion was such a gift. 1y
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GingerAntics @kspenmoll I came at it from that direction as well. I‘m a religious and intellectual historian. It‘s always interesting to see those things we‘re familiar with from a different angle though. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie everything changes when you get to discuss it, don‘t you think? I feel like my brain just wraps around it more and more as we discuss. 1y
GingerAntics My one issue was that most of what we followed was western, Christian. We didn‘t really follow the western Jewish track. I would love to find a book that discussed Jewish philosophy and Muslim philosophy. I‘ve read a few individual Muslim philosophers and they‘re so interesting and have such a different perspective. They also had more women, earlier. Not sure about the Jewish track. I‘m excited for the Eastern track next, though. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I agree we need more diverse readings. I do agree the discussion changes and stretches all of us in a good way! 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie if you come across anything, let me know. I keep looking. I‘m not sure if there is a comprehensive, but approachable book for each like this one, Pooh and Piglet. I wish there was. These are so helpful as a starting point. 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics have you seen this? It looks interesting. Also there‘s a Cambridge Companion to Medieval Jewish Philosophy, though I‘m not sure it‘s still in print. 1y
ravenlee I agree that this was a pretty narrow track, “western philosophy.” Interesting, but necessarily limited. About half of it was familiar from my undergraduate/graduate studies. I‘m looking forward to expanding our horizons with our upcoming reads! (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @kspenmoll check out this book @ravenlee found. I agree. It looks really good. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I agree that he had to pick is battles as it were. I think his background is in western philosophy, so obviously that‘s what he could speak on, but also, if he‘d found some coauthors and added in the eastern and Middle Eastern and even African philosophy, this book would just be ridiculously huge and I think it would lose its readability. I think it‘s opened the door for experts in these other fields to write similar books. 1y
ravenlee It would be awesome to have something similar for different traditions. I think part of why it‘s confined to this single tradition is to show the progression through history and the influences that pile up. He couldn‘t really have thrown Zen philosophy, for instance, into the mix because it‘s not in the same line of tradition/influence. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly! I wish other people would write books like this. Trying to find books similar, that aren‘t overly academic to dip your toes in are hard to come by, sadly. 1y
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit Wisdom comes from having a growth mindset. And teaching philosophy certainly promotes a growth mindset. When might the potential change to a fixed mindset and why is my question 1y
kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit I agree. Some of us naturally have a growth mindset. Others do not & need coaching/teaching to stretch & grow. Some students I work with struggle to move into such a mindset. I often wonder if when they graduate their brains revert. Some brain differences make attaining a growth mindset challenging. 1y
kspenmoll I think Sophie & Hilde are more open due to their ages than adults. Many incidents in the book remind us of that. They are the wise ones, still open to any possibilities. 1y
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TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I agree the wise are open to possibility. It also seems some people just want someone to tell them what to think and believe and that‘s their comfort. Clearly. Look at society. They don‘t want to think. That‘s something I can‘t understand. Some just seem unable to grasp the concept of free thought. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit when I was a kid “growth mindset” and “fixed mindset” hadn‘t been invented yet. I agree everyone has a natural way of viewing the world, yet I disagree that you can only learn with one. You can learn with either, you just learn differently. I guess that‘s why I prefer learning styles to this “mindset” nonsense. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll totally agree. I think in some sense Gaarder made this almost obvious with both mothers being kind of - not sure if absent minded is the right word, but sort of shrug and go with it type of people. Joanna‘s parents are definitely close minded and set in their ways. I guess we could argue the Albert and Alberto are both more open minded than their wives. It seems that this is equating open mindedness with wisdom, and I have to agree. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh my god. I can‘t stand “my pastor said” or “the president said.” Are you quoting this person? If you‘re quoting them, great. If not, stop blindly following. My god. I‘ll admit that I don‘t understand everything I act on, but I trust the people who do understand those things. I don‘t know how vaccines work beyond the basics, but I trust scientists and medical doctors. I don‘t trust anyone who tells me to take dewormer. 🙄 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I don‘t know how that kills you, but seeing that people have died from it, and science says not to ingest it as a human, I firmly believe (hell, I know) people shouldn‘t be taking this crap. Who gets their medications from tractor supply?! Come on, people. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit not to disparage it if it works for you or your students. I just know a lot of really intelligent people who according to the lists and assessments have a fixed mindset, yet easily learn everything. I‘m the same way. I come up as fixed mindset no matter what, yet I can teach myself anything and I can learn from most people. I‘m open minded, and I just think that‘s far more important. (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit this seems to just be one more way we/the education system is trying to make everyone the same. We have to turn the introverts into extroverts, we have to change students whose life experiences tell them life is one way, so they believe it‘s another way. Will that serve them in their actual lives outside of school and after school? Probably not. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit I just find trying to change who students are is a closed minded pursuit. Everyone can learn. Everyone just does it differently. Forcing students to change or trying to change them is simply sending the message that they are inherently wrong or that there is something wrong with them, which in itself hinders learning. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics It BLOWS my mind these people eat at fast food but are worried about a scientist decades long work!! GAH..... Dewormer. OY. 1y
TheBookHippie It takes out all toxins that is the short version of how it kills you. It's akin to cancer is cured when you die because it's dead. However you had to die to get it to die in you. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics have you read the book Mindset? It is more of a philosophy in many ways- it‘s not that people have one or the other by choice but rather striving through curiosity and conversation to encourage a growth mindset vs fear of the “wrong” answer or response limiting engagement. Everyone can strive to learn- or engage in many ways. Another example of fixed are people who ban books- out of fear of what books teach and keeping access to new 1y
Chrissyreadit Ideas or experiences limited. 1y
ravenlee I don‘t really agree with the childlike mindset being ideal. Yes, children have a greater capacity for wonder, are more open-minded - but they also lack the discretion to determine what‘s true/likely. Children are susceptible to whatever reasoning they are taught or figure out on their own, which can actually be really dangerous. Not sure that‘s something we should necessarily try to emulate. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee isn‘t that the point of growing up, though? Trying different things, seeing what works and what doesn‘t, what‘s real and what isn‘t? I don‘t think anyone is advocating for full, free reign for children. I think we‘re talking about just nurturing that natural open mindedness. 1y
ravenlee I mean that the complete blank slate isn‘t necessarily the best model for philosophers, because it‘s too open to suggestion or misdirection. For children it‘s great, in the right parental hands. For Sophie and Hilde, they‘re definitely more open-minded than the adults around them. (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly. Younger children need guidance. My concern comes in when parents indoctrinate their children and demonise any thought they don‘t agree with. That does just as much damage and letting kids believe what they want. 1y
8 likes19 comments
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit I loved this. My kids and I learned and discussed this so much when they were younger. It brought us to think about the world in a small way and how many possibilities exist that we are unaware of. 1y
kspenmoll It helps with the understanding that other worlds/ timelines can exist simultaneously without our awareness. The dream world in the book made this apparent, especially because I interpreted Sophie‘s world as in real time. 1y
kspenmoll Love stargazing. 1y
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TheBookHippie Love start gazing too. We are one layer. The other layers are seen in peeks sometimes I believe. It is massively bigger than we know that I‘m sure of. I think the veil of the other side is closer than we think. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I agree with all of that!!! 1y
GingerAntics I have an app on my phone and tablet that let you stargaze even when you can‘t see the stars from light pollution or clouds. 💙💙💙 1y
ravenlee I loved this whole idea. It gives one a sense of the vastness of space and time. I think for Sophie and Alberto, to go from realizing they are merely characters trapped in a book, to escaping but still being confined to their characters, to specks in an infinite universe…that‘s a pretty cool change of perspective. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee so kind of like the red bottle and blue bottle earlier in the cabin, but definitely on a much bigger scale. 1y
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit Absolutely yes!!! Years ago I considered being my children to a Presbyterian church instead of Catholic- but the view of predetermined destiny is why I did not. 1y
kspenmoll I just do not think that way. 1y
TheBookHippie Such nonsense 😝 why live? 1y
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GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit are the Presbyterians big into predestination? 1y
GingerAntics I think it matters, because if everything is predestined, why don‘t we just sit back and let predestination happen. Yet somehow this is the main view of America. We‘re America, we‘re destined to be this way. We were destined to be Americans. Rich people are destined to be powerful and have money. They deserve it. Poor people did something to deserve it. I guess you‘re only predestined if you‘re rich. Double standard as always. 1y
TheBookHippie Last I checked some believe it some do not depending what sect of it there is. It's all a bit much IMO. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it‘s in the cannon for Presbyterian but does not mean everyone believes it- kind of like how Catholics are not supposed to use birth control- cannon but not everyone believes it 🤣 1y
TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit We just listened to a PC of USA church give a sermon on it wish I could find it- but she -the minister pretty much denounced it! I LOL'd ! I was like oh boy......you may pay for this, 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit that makes sense. I get not wanting to even run the risk. It‘s not in the Catholic canon at all, but I grew up knowing some people who believed in it. “God put you in this earth to do a specific thing.” Uuum… so which of these things I like doing is this one thing? What if it‘s something I hate? Ugh 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit oooh, she could pay for that. The hardliners are rarely forgiving. 1y
ravenlee It depends on how you let the idea steer you. If it‘s all predestined and nothing you do matters, you can go to extremes and fear no consequences. On the other hand, you can dedicate yourself to living the best life you can and make the most of what you do have. 1y
ravenlee Personally, I hate the idea that I have no effect on my own life; though many things have happened over which I‘ve had little control. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee same. I think this is where we can‘t confuse a lack of predestination with control. We only really control ourselves. Everyone acts for themselves, so those actions are absolutely going to influence the people around them. I think that‘s a really important distinction. 1y
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit Hilde teaches the final lesson! 1y
kspenmoll Hilde does teach that dad! 1y
TheBookHippie Hilde for sure teaches the final lesson. 1y
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GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie don‘t forget Sophie. I think Hilde and Albert became the sources of information, they‘re teaching and discussing the lesson, where as before it was Sophie and Alberto doing that. Sophie and Alberto are now watching from a distance and not involved, before that was Hilde‘s role (and sort of Albert‘s). (edited) 1y
GingerAntics Also, Albert was influencing the experiences of Sophie and Alberto with all of his notes to Hilde and the weird weather. Now, Sophie is swinging wrenches at people‘s heads and Sophie and Albert take the boat out on the lake. 1y
ravenlee I think Sophie‘s attempts to affect Hilde‘s world are along the lines of the postcards and other messages earlier in the story: they‘re subtle hints that more is going on than meets the eye, but inexplicable at the moment. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly. They switch who is acting on the other‘s world. 1y
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit Im guessing you mean philosophically? Then yes, since the dream becomes real…. 1y
kspenmoll My immediate response was no. But that was a literal response. Without @Chrissyreadit ‘s response I would not even thought of the question in a philosophical sense. I need you people! I am quite literal yet I think wholisticly- integration & synthesis comes naturally to me. (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I think opposite you so together we are perfect!! 😂♥️ 1y
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TheBookHippie I would say yes as well. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit I love how we all balance each other out. I get a bit too literally as well. 1y
ravenlee There is quite a bit of irony throughout, which leads me to the Yes camp. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I totally forgot about the irony!!! Brilliant!!! 1y
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit My take away from this question is showing how foundational thoughts can be integrated and developed and we are always students with more to learn and most of all growth to make happen. 1y
kspenmoll Yes @Chrissyreadit . A combination of structure & questioning the philosophers suggest is my take away as well. 1y
TheBookHippie Always question always search for meaning when we don‘t we may as well not live a be a robot. We see that in people now. Always more to learn. The older I get the less I know for certain should be everyone‘s reality. 1y
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TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit forever students of life for sure. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll we learned a ton here! Still more to learn. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh my god, I wish that was peoples‘ reality. More and more it seems people think they know everything. Oy 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics OY VEY is right. 1y
ravenlee Hey friends! My internet is down today so I won‘t be jumping in until it gets fixed, hopefully sometime tomorrow! I miss my Sunday philosophy fix! 😭 1y
ravenlee I think part of it is seeing Sophie and Hilde start as passive readers, merely absorbing information, and then start engaging/asking questions, and eventually become more equal partners in the exchange of ideas. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee that makes sense. The progression is the important part. I don‘t think everyone makes the full progression. We discourage kids from asking questions in school, so we stunt their growth and movement through the progression. 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics I saw a Neil deGrasse Tyson clip about how parents discourage the scientific inquisitiveness in their kids because it‘s messy/annoying/frustrating/time-consuming. Adults in general and a lot of teachers really do stunt their intellectual growth in the name of obedience and docility. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee they absolutely do. They don‘t have time to answer questions, they just need kids to perform on tests so the schools can keep their funding and they can keep their jobs. It‘s sad. Unfortunately, this is bleeding into the college level as well, now. Professors ignore raised hands, tell students they‘re not answering questions, they don‘t respond to emails. I‘m hoping it‘s just the school I worked at. 1y
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Chrissyreadit
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Pickpick

I am glad I did this as a buddy read- I think I enjoyed it much more. I wish I had also read this with my teens for homeschool a few years ago- I think it was a great way to get an idea of philosophy and history. Thank you for so many great discussions @ravenlee @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie and @GingerAntics your questions were thorough and engaging and I greatly appreciate the time you put into this group read 🧡🙌

kspenmoll It was quite a ride!!! 1y
TheBookHippie Such an amazing experience 💚🌍 1y
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GingerAntics
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This part of the song (the last part) is probably the part that fits best for us and this book, though.
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

GingerAntics Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
Debating how we're here, they're catching deer (we're catching viruses)
Religion or astronomy (Descartes or Deuteronomy)
It all started with the big bang!
Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology
It all started with the big bang!
1y
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GingerAntics
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The last chapter REALLY made me think of this. I couldn‘t help singing the parts of the song as Albert/the major discussed them. (The whole song, not just the theme song/first verse.)
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

GingerAntics Our whole universe was in a hot, dense state
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started, wait
The earth began to cool, the autotrophs began to drool
Neanderthals developed tools
We built a wall (we built the pyramids)
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries
That all started with the big bang!
1y
10 likes1 comment
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TheBookHippie
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Pickpick

There aren‘t words for how much I enjoyed our time with this #DeadPhilosophersSociety read. @GingerAntics leading us through and all of us pondering all the philosophical things, and Sophie, Hilde and even the white rabbit. I thank you all. I‘ve thoroughly enjoyed these months. Thank you. 🌎🌍🌏💚

ravenlee It‘s been so entertaining, enlightening - and a lot of fun! 1y
Chrissyreadit 🙌😘ditto! 1y
GingerAntics It‘s been quite a journey! Thank you for stepping in when I felt like death warmed over. 💙💙💙 1y
kspenmoll Fabulous shared journey into the largely unknown for me-OMG that edition you pictured is gorgeous!!! 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll it‘s the folio isn‘t it lovely?!!!!♥️♥️♥️ 1y
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kspenmoll
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Pickpick

Just finished this book tonight.Don‘t know if I have the words to capture all the ways this study of philosophy, as seen through the eyes of Sophie,has challenged, stretched, delighted, exasperated, etc.etc., me. At times I felt as if my brain just couldn‘t comprehend what I was learning-or it that was so stuffed with new insights & knowledge that It might explode!This really was a STUDY for me-and to travel,explore,&share this path with Littens🔽

Gissy So pretty that booksleeve 😍 1y
kspenmoll 🔼Inevitably made this journey so much richer-a dive into the depths of a sea of philosophy! Thanks & appreciation to @GingerAntics who hosted & challenged us with her insightful questions & to @TheBookHippie for stepping in-(coming up with questions terrifies me).🤍💜❤️Now I need to step back & process- this was no dry study of philosophy,but a story of a soon to be 15 yr old girl being called to this study herself with an older teacher, Albert. (edited) 1y
kspenmoll “Expect the unexpected!” 1y
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TheBookHippie I don‘t have words either. I have stretched my brain to capacity, learned a ton, done so much self reflection, learned so much from everyone in our read. I will continue to think on a lot of it. It has forever changed me in some regards. So grateful to everyone! I agree @GingerAntics did just a phenomenal job. I‘m so glad she mentioned this book initially and we read this slowly so I could and all of us could learn as we go. Just loved it!!! ♥️ 1y
TheBookHippie I feel like we just took a very hard college class and need to process it. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I can‘t seem to find the words to review this book, yet. I agree there is just so much in my head right now. I absolutely need to process.I‘m so glad I found a wonderful group to read this with. It‘s been so much fun. 1y
ravenlee This has been a wild ride, and I‘m so glad we all took it together! 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll I have been enjoying a family reunion with all my sibs, nieces & nephews- have not seen each other in 3 years like so many. All vaccinated & safe. Today we have a brunch & a hike so I will join in conversation tomorrow- 💕💕 1y
TheBookHippie I‘m excited!!!! Like how is this ending ?! 1y
ravenlee I couldn‘t resist, and already finished. Have to say, it was ok, but I prefer the earlier parts of the book to the ending. 1y
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GingerAntics @ravenlee I broke down a while ago and listened to the whole audiobook, then went back to where we were. I really don‘t remember the ending now. That certainly lends credence to what you‘re saying. I‘m thinking I‘m going to finish it today. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie more philosophy? 1y
ravenlee @kspenmoll that sounds so wonderful! Have the best, best time! 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll awe enjoy!! 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics FYI I think I‘m very much attune to philosophy now, during my daily watching of news and people it‘s a good coping mechanism for idiot watching!!! 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it‘s really amazing all the ways philosophy is helpful, isn‘t it? 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I do love idiot watching. 😂🤣😂 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Yes I‘m so grateful for this new refocus. This read has been wonderful on so many levels. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie now that I‘m starting to put the puzzle pieces together and that truly strange party, this is turning into pure brilliance. I think Gaarder wondered what it would be like of all the philosophers throughout western philosophy got together at a party, what would happen. I think we‘ve seen it. 🤣😂🤣 I kind of want to go to that party. (edited) 1y
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GingerAntics
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ravenlee Like so many people, he‘s fine being the puppet master and absolutely freaks out when he‘s the puppet. 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼accurate!!! 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee yes, that!!! 100% 1y
kspenmoll @ravenlee Totally! 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Good stuff here I quite like her! 1y
ravenlee I really liked all of this, and I was impressed by her networking abilities. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee she really did bring everyone she knew together, accept her mother so she wouldn‘t tell her father, to pull this off. This part was GREAT!!! 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie Hilde is a great character. I love that she turned it all around on her father. That was brilliant. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics She is brilliant. Best part of this weeks reading I think. 1y
Chrissyreadit I enjoyed her plan. 1y
kspenmoll I just loved her notes, idea- gobsmacked him!!! 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie 🤯🤯🤯 1y
ravenlee Wonderland? Narnia? Westeros? 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee that is the correct answer. 🤯🤯🤯 1y
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Chrissyreadit Somewhere over the rainbow 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit also correct 😂🤣😂 1y
kspenmoll 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻 everyone‘s responses! @TheBookHippie @ravenlee @Chrissyreadit 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll 😂😂😂 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I‘m wondering the same thing! One more go today I‘ll report back ! 1y
ravenlee It‘s a different kind of not understanding. I‘ve read each of the previous chapters twice and still feel a little lost, because there‘s so much information to absorb. But this - I don‘t think I‘ll ever really understand this part. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee oh thank god it‘s not just me!!! 1y
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Chrissyreadit Maybe there is a spoiler online or interview with the author somewhere? 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit oh, I‘ve been all over the internet trying to find answers. If it‘s out there, it‘s buried. The only thing I‘ve been able to find of Gaarder talking about this book (or anything really) is where he talked about what would be different if he wrote it in 2012. 1y
kspenmoll I have felt list at different times & definitely need to reread—- 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I‘m hoping as we go through other books, the philosophy of this book will solidify more and become clearer. It‘s organised really well, I could see it as a makeshift reference, too. 1y
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GingerAntics
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They hid then fled? They went into the cellar and came out… where? There was actually a lot of drinking at the party and this is all a drunken dream? Does anyone know what happened here? I feel so off kilter at the moment.
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @CBee @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie I don‘t know either 🤪 1y
ravenlee Using the major‘s distraction of the absurd garden party, they slipped away and escaped out the margin? 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee 🤷🏻‍♀️ 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee 🤔🥃🤯😳🙈🤦🏼‍♀️🥃🤯🤬🥃🤯🤦🏼‍♀️ 1y
Chrissyreadit Im still confused 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit I think it was just to sneak out of the major‘s story line while the major was busy dealing with the war between the Pharisees and the hedonists. 🤷🏼‍♀️ (edited) 1y
kspenmoll Wild cuckoo garden party- felt like a wacky dream- Sophie‘s mom easy rather emotionless acquiescence to Sophie leaving her life with Albert was too dreamlike, weird- was this a dream of Major‘s? Did they really enter an alternate universe? (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I think they escaped the story, but they‘re still in the universe of stories. Alberto said they could go back to their lives now that the story was over and they‘d escaped. It doesn‘t seem like Albert/the major knows they‘re there. Sophie‘s mother‘s response feels almost like a cop out, though. I agree with that. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Like i said going reread this afternoon and see if I find more clarity 🤷🏻‍♀️😳 1y
ravenlee I don‘t know that a reread is going to clarify much at all…🤯 1y
ravenlee Maybe Alberto is being philosophical and not taking any of the previous rules for granted? 1y
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TheBookHippie @ravenlee maybe. I figure one more try and I‘m out 😂 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie so glad we‘re all on the same page of “no idea.” 1y
GingerAntics Maybe if I do a third read through, but go very slowly…??? 🤯🤯🤯 1y
ravenlee Maybe it‘s like asking what happened in Waiting for Godot - there isn‘t really an answer, because nothing and everything happened. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I haven‘t read that, but that may be the perfect answer. I feel this crazy need to try just one more time, but if nothing becomes clear after that, then I‘m going with that answer. 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics I haven‘t read it, but I saw it once in college and somebody asked me later what it was about and I was honestly stumped. The literal answer sounds really vapid, but the full answer is so nebulous and philosophical…you kind of had to be there? kind of a thing. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee there is actually a movie based on this book. People who have seen it seem to love it. Its a Norwegian movie, but there was a version for the UK with English subtitles (and maybe dubbing). Unfortunately, it‘s crazy hard to find. I wish I could find it. I feel like we could have fun with that. 1y
Chrissyreadit I just did not love this chapter. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit it was quite different from all the other chapters, certainly. 1y
kspenmoll Very different, an unexpected aberration. This chapter felt like it just dropped into the story unexpectedly. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll yes!!! It was really out of left field. 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I‘m going to reread it. Honestly I need to. 😝 1y
ravenlee This is where I got frustrated. I don‘t know what the major‘s point is (seriously, if he wrote this ridiculousness for his 15-year-old daughter and included all that junk about Joanna? Creepy). I guess it‘s supposed to be absurd, as in theatre of the absurd. Of course it‘s the perfect diversion for Alberto and Sophie‘s escape, but…so weird. (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee the father going over and watching? That was REALLY creepy!!! 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that was my second time through, and I‘m still not sure what happened here. I‘m going with your original suggestion of acid trip. Perhaps Gaarder was on one when he wrote that chapter. 1y
ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie my longtime answer is drugs - either too much or not enough. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee 🤣😂🤣 maybe that‘s the exact answer!!! We‘re not on drugs right now. We all need a little something and suddenly this will all make SO much sense!!! 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics it‘s looking to be a real possibility! 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee Either is for sure a possibility !! 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee I‘VE GOT IT!!! Sophie‘s mother is the status quo. Whatever is the norm, whatever everyone else is doing, she‘s fine with. She‘s easily swayed by what she is told by authority figures (in this case, Alberto). Joann‘s parents are the antagonists. You believe what we believe or else. It‘s all for show, though. They don‘t even believe what they want to force everyone to believe. They‘re the Pharisees and the sophists. (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎉🎉🎉🎉 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee the boys are excess. They‘re just doing whatever is fun, in the moment now. Joann and Jeremy are hedonists. They‘re just doing whatever feels good. If it feels good, it is good. Alberto is the reason of the ages. Sophie is the student of that reason. The Philosophical Garden Party is literally all of western philosophy at a garden party. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie third time was the charm. I didn‘t get it until like the second to last page of the chapter. It suddenly just hit me. Oh my god, it all makes total sense now. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics by George you‘ve solved it!!! BRAVO!!!! 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics that indeed is total sense. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it only took three trips through reading and two trips through the audiobook. 🤦🏼‍♀️ Oy 1y
ravenlee Holy cow, batman! @GingerAntics you are much more dedicated than I am, and I appreciate your brilliance! 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I don‘t know about dedicated. I think I just got lucky. 1y
Chrissyreadit 🙌🙌🙌🙌👏👏👏👏brilliant! 1y
kspenmoll @GingerAntics @ravenlee. The whole sexual encounter with Dad & the party watching was creepy & unnecessary? But the whole chapter was strange. 1y
kspenmoll @GingerAntics So so impressed with your synthesis & conclusions-Thank you!!!!! 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I didn‘t get that until after what was technically my 5th trip through this chapter. It‘s really weird!!! 1y
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GingerAntics
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I used to teach a class called “critical thinking” and the curriculum not so artfully skirted and contorted to avoid philosophy or anything that could potentially be considered philosophical. Basically, I was teaching close reading and creative problem solving.
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @CBee @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie I‘ve changed speech of narrative instead of the sky is blue- why does the sky appear blue? Does it appear blue to you? Politics- who said that? Why do you think they said that? Where do you think that opinion comes from? Who is giving them money to say that? What do they gain by saying that? What do they have to lose? I teach question everything. 😂 1y
TheBookHippie But I think philosophy from a young age is crucial. 1y
ravenlee Like the textbook “critical thinking” questions at chapters‘ end that just want regurgitated bullet points. What “critical thinking” means depends on who‘s selling it. The conspiracy theorists (Republicans, cough cough) want people to disbelieve science and common sense and follow their lead, so their “critical thinking” is “ignore experts and believe what we tell you.” It feeds confirmation bias. 1y
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ravenlee Teaching philosophy (any decent amount) is about teaching skills, not ideas. Critical thinking is a tool that can lead to any number of correct answers, not one specific dummy answer. 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee Always question always assume we don‘t know what we don‘t know. Some people cough cough like a tidy answer to hang onto with all their might 🤪🤦🏻‍♀️ because fear? Security? Safety ? Ugh. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee they are definitely selling pseudo-critical thinking, that‘s for sure. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie don‘t forget power!!! I think asking questions is the most important thing philosophy teaches. I am with you 100%. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics lord yes, bloody power 1y
Chrissyreadit Did you mean how do we teach critical race theory? Like from birth. Everywhere. We can throw in philosophy too… 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit first of all, critical race theory is a legal course of study. There is literally no school for minors or even basic university level, that is teaching critical race theory. Plain and simple. That is a fact. I do believe we can incorporate philosophy - especially diverse philosophies - in our daily lives everyday, from birth onward. Obviously, as children it is our parents‘ responsibility to include philosophy in our lives. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit there are plenty of board books and story books that incorporate philosophy. @TheBookHippie has found many of them. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee @Chrissyreadit perhaps our first step needs to be more basic. We change our thinking and language around thinking a lot. Instead of calling it over thinking and framing it as something to stop doing, we call it as thinking philosophically and frame it as something useful and helpful. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics the useful helpful piece is so important. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics you took me way too literally. I was being facetious 🤪 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie More acid tripping ? 1y
ravenlee I really hated this bit. I‘ve been loving the whole book, but now the garden party, and especially the Joanna weirdness…not cool, Gaarder, not cool. 1y
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ravenlee Although the response that she‘d have to wait until later was pretty funny. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee and if she was having a christening tonight, she‘d have to plan it herself. Was it all supposed to be a distraction by Albert? Maybe that‘s how Alberto says he may have been in on their escape. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I feel like this entire section was an acid trip. I‘m not going to lie. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics acid was just the beginning. I really did not like this chapter at all. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit I didn‘t much like it until I figured out that it is literally a History of Western Philosophy Garden Party. 1y
kspenmoll This was crazy! Must have been that acid @TheBookHippie 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll it‘s very acid trippy hippie commune Haight Ashbury vibe 1y
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GingerAntics
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Is there such a thing as a synthetic philosopher? Perhaps these are the people who think they‘re so philosophical and cleaver, but are really prejudiced, closed minded, idiots.
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @CBee @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Exactly. Like pseudo scientist 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ 1y
TheBookHippie They are out there I‘m sure. 1y
ravenlee Are these the people, like the Sophists, who get stuck on pedantic little microquestions and ignore the important stuff? Or the ones who base their arguments on logical fallacies but make their proofs really elaborate, hoping nobody will pull out the single jenga block it‘s all balanced on? 1y
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GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie 😂🤣😂 I‘m trying to think of what Sophie‘s mother‘s intent was in saying she didn‘t believe in real philosophers because everything is synthetic these days. Makes no sense. 1y
ravenlee None of this bit made sense. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee that is a really fair point… the whole thing felt like a hot mess. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie did anyone else notice that we finally get Sophie‘s mother‘s first name - Helene - in the Garden Party chapter? Three chapters to go in the whole book and she‘s finally referred to by her name?! 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I‘m like which is this after ? Helen of Troy 😂😂😂🤦🏻‍♀️ 1y
Chrissyreadit @ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie hot mess is a good description. Maybe it was a synthetic chapter. 1y
Chrissyreadit @ravenlee you are by any chance referring to people who think someone won an election or wear shirts with the letter Q would you? 1y
TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit 😂😂😂perhaps she is 🤦🏻‍♀️ the JFK JR is arising from the dead folks 🤪 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit 😂🤣😂 good point. Everything is synthetic these days. Maybe it‘s not a real chapter at all. 🤣😂🤣 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 🤦🏼‍♀️ oh those people are special 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I just cannot. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie right? I feel like Dana Carvy as the Church Lady on SNL when I think of them. “Isn‘t that special.” 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics that‘s the best description of how to respond 🎉👏🏼 1y
kspenmoll This whole stream made me laugh out loud!!! @Chrissyreadit @ravenlee @TheBookHippie @GingerAntics (edited) 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie 🤯 All I can could think of is HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOODCHUCK CHUCK IF A WOODCHUCK COULD CHUCK WOOD 😂😂😂🤣🤣 1y
ravenlee It felt a bit like Alice in the looking glass. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that is the correct answer. 😂🤣🤣 @ravenlee that is the perfect description. 1y
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Chrissyreadit @TheBookHippie bwahahah 😂😂😂 1y
TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit 🤪🤷🏻‍♀️ 1y
kspenmoll @TheBookHippie 😂😂😂😂 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll such high intelligence I have in that answer and yet I feel it is accurate. 1y
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GingerAntics
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We‘re almost to the end. I can‘t believe how far we‘ve come. Next week is our second to last week with Sophie, Alberto, Hilde, and Albert. Hopefully we‘ll have some answers by then.
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @CBee @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

ravenlee I‘m so curious about the party! 1y
kspenmoll I am excited but also sad to come to the book‘s end. I have learned so much, stretched my brain through reading & discussions with everyone.💕 1y
kspenmoll I just noticed we have another chapter to get to, The Big Bang. So we have 2 more weeks 🙌🏻🙌🏻 1y
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Chrissyreadit Just curious- would any of you be interested in the last chapter discussion being over zoom and as a Come as Your Favorite Philosopher Party? Or you are all welcome to come to my house…. I have several spare beds and couches 😘 @TheBookHippie @GingerAntics @kspenmoll @ravenlee (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie I am loving this so much. It‘s more than I thought it‘d be and I‘ve learned a ton all over again! 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I feel the same way. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll yeah, we definitely have two weeks left, unless we want to just finish up the book next week. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee right? What does a philosophy party look like? 1y
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie 😂😂😂😂spit out coffee. In order to finish a project I wanted detention -so I‘d have quiet time- I told my teacher this was my favorite! I got two whole weeks … 😂😂😳 apparently this is top of the no no list 🤷🏻‍♀️ 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie Nietzsche drinking? 😂🤣😂 I‘m sorry, that‘s funny. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I was a “problem” 1y
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GingerAntics
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ravenlee Is it going to be the prize at the philosophical garden party? When she and Joanna were discussing the activities and prizes Sophie did ponder whether such a thing even existed. 1y
kspenmoll That took me by surprise! 1y
Chrissyreadit It‘s silly to me. This part of the story reminds me of when you see an image in a mirror and a smaller image in a mirror with infinite images… 1y
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TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit good picture! 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee maybe 🤷🏻‍♀️ 1y
TheBookHippie What is the author dropping or smoking ? 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit I like that. So in the book Sophie has, is there a Sophie who now has the book, in which there is another Sophie who also has the book… on and on? 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 🤣😂🤣 I think he was seriously on something through various parts of this. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I hope not. Who wants to read a book they make a cameo appearance in at the end, just because they showed up at a party? Is it meant to be a totally different book? The one Hilde has? 1y
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GingerAntics
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ravenlee I think it‘s a weird way to describe it. It‘s self-indulgent, pseudo-science, fodder for confirmation bias; I don‘t really get the pornography connection. 1y
ravenlee And that‘s not to say all the new age stuff is dreck, especially more recent work, but a lot of it is…academically unrigorous. Of course, the “current events” and political writing of recent times is just as bad, if not worse. 1y
Chrissyreadit I was a little offended by it to be honest- but I‘m hoping I can be eloquent enough in these blurbs. 1. People are both complex and easily manipulated. If using a spiritualist is giving one the confirmation they need or a type of support they need and it does no harm- great. 2. I lOVE tarot cards for example- they are beautiful and creative and take my thoughts and perspectives to places I had not openly considered, sometimes bringing the 1y
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Chrissyreadit Subconscious to a conscious place. 3. We use bio feedback, and recognize that intention and focus work on both the conscious and unconscious level. If holding a crystal assists in mindfulness and focus, or lighting a candle supports focus I say do it!! I love using crystals and candles. They are beautiful, create a look or vibe I find soothing and promote a general sense of control when I need it most. If that works- great- I think we will find 1y
Chrissyreadit Underlying science in how our thoughts impact our brain and actions based on those sets of stimuli- because it is studied with meditation. I also think it offers a set of archetypes that can be appealing and resonate with the narrative someone may need. 1y
TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit I agree with you also look at autoimmune people and outside things science shows affect and effect even stress. Meditation and Yoga have saved me. 1y
TheBookHippie I was taught all of this was of the devil growing up 😂 also was taught it was pornographic 🤪 not sure why?! 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I hadn‘t linked the bs factor of some new age stuff with some of the modern journalism. That‘s a good connection, honestly. It‘s very much the same. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit I‘ve seen a lot of the research on meditation. I‘ve seen candles and crystals used to aid focus or as types of meditation, which I totally agree with. I think the whole crystal thing gets taken too far when people start talking about them changing chemistry (ex water molecules) or the aura of and environment. That is total hogwash. I still don‘t see how that‘s on par with porn. At least anything you see in porn is possible. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie so you were given this comparison as well. So can you explain it to us, or is it just one of those things that makes zero sense to you too? I always thought “yoga is porn” was because of the tight pants and bra tops. I get that being called porn by some of these crazies. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics sexual and porn are interchangeable however so is finding true self I never quite understood other than free thinking is in of itself porno sexual content 🤦🏻‍♀️😫😅 1y
ravenlee @Chrissyreadit you made me think of something I saw about flipping a coin to make a decision and how it will always “lead you to the right path” - but it‘s not because of some mystical power/fate. It‘s because when you see what the result of the coin toss is, you‘ll either be relieved or disappointed, and that shows you how you really feel about the outcome. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh good grief 🤦🏼‍♀️🥃🤬 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I‘ve heard that, too. 1y
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GingerAntics
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kspenmoll I don‘t see freedom so negatively. 1y
Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll I completely agree. I will choose the concept of freedom every time over subservience 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit I didn‘t get this statement either. It seems very negative and dangerously close to nihilism, certainly. Maybe it‘s how you use the freedom you have? 1y
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GingerAntics
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ravenlee That was such a brief whirlwind of Nietzsche! Hard to form much of an idea from a paragraph. I wonder if he‘s glossed over in part because of how Nietzsche‘s ideas were adjusted by his sister and coopted by the Nazis… 1y
kspenmoll I new little of Nietzsche‘s philosophy. You have sparked my interest with the Nazi connection. Want to research that now but I need to understand how his ideas fit?! 1y
Chrissyreadit I have nothing…. 1y
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GingerAntics @ravenlee @kspenmoll @Chrissyreadit I felt like he was really glossed over in this one. We got far more Sartre. I wish Gaarder had presented more Nietzsche than he did. Horrible things have been done with Marx‘s ideas, but we got a whole chapter of him. 1y
kspenmoll @GingerAntics Agree, so little Nietzsche…wonder why the author choose to include so little. Maybe not “inspired”? 1y
ravenlee @kspenmoll as I recall (and it‘s fuzzy so please forgive me if I‘m wrong) Nietzsche‘s sister was a Nazi sympathizer and after his death she “edited” his works to be more in line with her beliefs. Then the Nazis latched onto his ideas about the “superman,” which of course was the Aryan. 1y
kspenmoll @ravenlee Thanks! My son told me what his sister did with Nietzsche‘s writings after he died. It‘s scary how something like that can happen. 1y
ravenlee @kspenmoll it really is. It also led to some serious confusion for years after his death as to what he really intended. I think there are still multiple editions of his works because of it. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee Hm. I wonder if any of the originals still exist. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee that is complicated. Maybe Gaarder didn‘t feel he had the space available to sort all of that out, so he just glossed it a bit. 1y
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GingerAntics
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ravenlee My first thought, and recurring, is the Bill and Ted‘s Excellent Adventure scene - when someone calls him “Frude dude!” 1y
ravenlee I‘ve always found Freud‘s ideas compelling. I‘ve read a couple of his shorter works (need to reread, though, I‘ve forgotten too much) and want to read Interpretation of Dreams (I have a cool illustrated copy). Doesn‘t mean I buy all of it, Jung‘s more my style. But the idea of the unconscious and all our mechanisms to regulate it - all of that makes a whole lot of sense. Let‘s just stay out of the Oedipal complex, and we‘ll be fine. 1y
ravenlee I was also interested in the effects of Freud‘s work on the artistic movements. The notion of inspiration being a release of the unconscious is intriguing. But it also brings to mind the argument about inspiration being for amateurs, and artists/musicians/writers who are serious about their work (or trying to make a living at it) can‘t wait for inspiration to strike but must apply discipline and skill to achieve their ends. 1y
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kspenmoll @ravenlee I enjoyed this chapter because I felt like it was a review of Freudian ideas/ how he developed them. Always liked his dream ideas & it seems as if it is part of our culture to interpret our dreams. Jung seemed to have moved into a different realm of dreamwork but now I want to review his work! 1y
Chrissyreadit I am actually a fan of Freud from a foundational perspective on work specifically with psychopathology- including the Oedipal complex- because he was working with people who needed mental health support. We also know that sexual abuse has been far more common than people like to admit. I have seen the suppositions play out fairly consistently with children whose parents are over controlling and/or abusive. @kspenmoll @ravenlee 1y
Chrissyreadit But when it comes to a more general population and human nature I am a huge fan of Jung @ravenlee @kspenmoll 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee good luck with interpretation of dreams. I read it for AP psych and it was an absolute snooze fest. Maybe that was the point, so the reader falls asleep and dreams something to think about while attempting to read? 🤷🏼‍♀️ Jung is definitely saner, and easier to read in my experience. I still can‘t really forgive him for his views on daughters being molested by their fathers. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I think dream interpretation is part of the human condition. The Bible has dreams as prophecy. Other cultures have dream as prophecy or knowledge about the world or the self. I really think it‘s a human thing. I don‘t know if our pets wonder about their dreams or if they just think that stuff really happened to them. It would be cool to know, though. Jung is still far more rooted in reality than Freud, though. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit I don‘t know. He addressed it, but he still addressed it in that it was the fault of the victim. You‘re having these thoughts about your father because you want to have sex with him, not because he actually abused you. I‘m not sure he did any good on that front. We can still sort of see his theories in the more modern idea of “you marry one of your parents,” but I‘m still not able to forgive him for gaslighting little girls. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit love Jung. He feels more like solid ground to me. 1y
ravenlee Well, hopefully the heavily illustrated edition I have will give me plenty to focus on between boring passages! It seems like something to dip into, rather than dive into. I plan to read it slowly over a month or so. Someday. 1y
kspenmoll @GingerAntics 😂😂snooze fest. His interpretation of incest really did milk gaslight women/girls for ages. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee good luck in there 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll Right? And I think it‘s still being used to an extent. We‘re still fighting our way out of the religious, Freudian wet paper bag of victim blaming. 1y
ravenlee I didn‘t know any of the molestation stuff, how vile. And how typically patriarchal. 1y
ravenlee @Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics this brings to mind a scene from Frasier: brother Niles subs for Frasier on his radio psychiatry program for a day or two, and when he introduces himself he says, “whereas my brother is a Freudian, I am a Jungian - so there will be no blaming mother today!” 1y
Chrissyreadit @ravenlee @GingerAntics it is interesting at how the patriarchy has influenced so much bad! I should clarify too that a lot of my view is just don‘t throw the baby out with the bath water. Freud understood there was a subconscious at play- that‘s huge. He understood that different negative events during early development led to internal and external conflicts- and in my view was the first step in what evolved into attachment. For me some of this 1y
Chrissyreadit Meaning is the equivalent of the evolutionary primordial soup- it‘s hard to say exactly where evolution occurred into different theories - they all like to consider themselves fairly original but the truth is that there is a great deal of overlap in the pre foundation and foundation. There is so much struggle with sex through the male lens- I‘m not disagreeing about victim blaming but I also recognize the pattern and struggle that if sex was 1y
Chrissyreadit A pleasurable sensation while being molested there is a very different conflict occurring- I see it when fairly young siblings (under the age of 10)molest younger siblings- and they are both victims. I have to work way too often in these situations and just know that those early experiences and impact as an event in and of themselves was first discussed openly by Freud for better or for worse. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee yeah, he was treating his friends‘ daughters (conflict of interest these days) and when they trudged up memories of being molested by their fathers or they admitted they had been molested, he said it was just an expression of them wanting to have sex with their fathers and didn‘t really happen. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee 🤣😂🤣 that show was awesome!!! (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit Freud did lay the foundation for much, if not all, of what came after him. I do agree with that. He was one of the first people (men really) to make an attempt at the importance of the mind on everyday life. We can‘t throw him out entirely, but we can‘t act like he was some genius either. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit that‘s a terrible situation. I swear, children should be protected in ways they never are, and we need to let them be children in ways we‘re “protecting them.” Protecting children from childhood is just stupid. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit I did just learn about arousal nonconcordance and how pleasure and even orgasm can occur even in rape situations because those are physical autonomic responses and have nothing to do with desire or choice. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics yes- but even more the mixed message young children get thinking it‘s fun and a sign of love. To say it‘s hard to tease out is an understatement especially when you do not want children to grow up feeling shame around sex because of what was done to them. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit that‘s so true! I hadn‘t thought of that, but that makes SO much sense. I can‘t even imagine how you try to teach kids that‘s not something they should be doing with other kids, but sex isn‘t bad among consenting adults. That‘s complicated without sexual abuse involved. 1y
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TheBookHippie I have to Hippie out here and sing Freedoms just another word for nothing left to loose… Nothing don't mean nothing honey if it ain't free... And feeling good was easy, lord, when he sang the blues. ✌🏻 1y
kspenmoll @TheBookHippie 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻 1y
ravenlee On the one hand, the idea that there is no human nature, nothing deterministic, is very liberating, and I can see how de Beauvoir could take that idea to feminism and claim that each of us can become whomever we truly wish to be. But also the weight of responsibility for absolutely every decision throughout an entire lifetime, with no guiding limits or ideas…that can be awfully overwhelming. 1y
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kspenmoll I think there has to be some kind of framework or guidance. Like the golden rule, Bill of Rites, etc. It is too overwhelming to feel as if every step one takes is full of personal responsibility- yet personal responsibility for our actions is vital to embrace- we have to understand that we truly can have agency & become who we want & shed family/peer expectations etc. It takes self awareness & desire & commitment. 🤪🤯🔽 1y
kspenmoll @TheBookHippie I think I will just sing Janis Joplin‘s rendition! (edited) 1y
TheBookHippie @ravenlee I agree. And look what we call and how we treat ppl who do what they want. In good and bad ways. My belief in we have to act as a whole or disaster is currently true 😷 Freedom isn‘t FREE. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll There are days where I just sing… 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @ravenlee I agree with this 100%. Without some sort of guide, it would just be too overwhelming for most, but then you get those that would abuse their own agency and power to restrict the agency and power of others. Even with a framework we have this problem. Imagine how much more wide spread it would be if there was no framework. 1y
ravenlee @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie @GingerAntics agreed - the limit to one‘s freedom must be when it infringes on someone else‘s freedom. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly! Sadly, that seems to be some people‘s view of freedom to begin with. I want to force you to adhere to my beliefs… FREEDOM OF RELIGION you can‘t stop me!!! 🙄🥃 1y
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ravenlee This was very interesting. I liked the interplay between imagination and reason and how each is essential. I was confused by the random bit about herding sheep (which seems to come up strangely frequently, now that I notice it - and that fits in with the Sartre discussion, too). 1y
kspenmoll I really enjoyed this discussion in the book- never saw Darwin in that light, as providing a frame work for the interplay between imagination & reason. We make choices all the time around imagination,inspiration,how what we choose to focus on can seem just chance or arbitrary. But there is choice involved- sometimes I “sleep on it” & awake with a synthesis, new thought, decision. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I totally agree on the sleep on it. Happens a ton to me. 1y
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TheBookHippie I enjoyed this part. Off side note why sheep? Biblical or otherwise it‘s always sheep?‘ 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee @kspenmoll I hadn‘t put imagination and reason together like this before either, but it makes so much sense. Writer‘s block to “finding a muse,” when you think too logically, everything comes to a screeching halt. It is a delicate balance. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie what is up with all the sheep? Did all of these philosophers use this term, or is that Gaarder? 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Biblical alt right do it as well!!! 🤷🏻‍♀️ 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s what I‘m saying. It‘s the popular metaphor… but who is taking sheep dewormer? You can‘t even make this stuff up!!! 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 1y
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ravenlee I think he means that the power of wonder, the pursuit of scientific questions and such, is what got us to the moon. But I‘ve been doing too much reading about the politics of the space race to see it as anything other than a reaction to Communism. 1y
kspenmoll @ravenlee Agree- space exploration was a race to get into space & conquer it before Communist Russia. Yes, the power of wonder has begotten so much that is progressive & wonderful in science/advances. 1y
Chrissyreadit @ravenlee @kspenmoll @GingerAntics it‘s interesting to think about that it current terms- are these current space excursions because of wonder or capitalism or power? I wonder where we would be if wonder drove our exploration 1y
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TheBookHippie @ravenlee True story. It was let‘s pull our pants down and see who is bigger moment. Nothing to do with space or wonder. 1y
TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit they are seeing who has the biggest 🍆 and the most 💵 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit oh these rich guys going into space are 100% capitalism and power. Notice they‘re not bringing any women with them, either. This is nothing more than look at my big rocket!!! Look what it did!!! Be impressed by my money, power, and my big rocket. 🙄 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 100% 😂🤣😂 This is just a pissing contest between guys with WAY too much money. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @ravenlee yeah, I‘ve always seen the space race as trying to prove capitalism superior over communism. That‘s why I was confused by this statement outside of the abstract. 1y
ravenlee It‘s such a romanticized view - setting up the scientists as descendants of Galileo, etc. and carrying our scientific dreams into the future and beyond! But the only reason those scientists got their funding was to beat the Russians to the moon (because they beat us into space, and we have to show those Commies who‘s boss!). No government funds wonder, dreams, or imagination without another motive. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly!!! 1y
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This seems like another version of the discussion we had earlier in the book about how free a person is to advance their place in society or move up the social ladder. Maybe it‘s just me.
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @CBee @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

ravenlee I agree, we are far from being self-determined. It seems like a product of privilege (extreme privilege) even to think something like this. (edited) 1y
kspenmoll So many other factors at play for women- country of origin, class, income, race, power etc. the power of patriarchy is Huge. 1y
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TheBookHippie @ravenlee OHMYWORD yes exactly. 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll gah… yes. 1y
TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit I cannot 😡 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll @ravenlee I agree that privilege is a massive player in this discussion. If may be different in Norway now, but I‘m not sure a French women in the first 2/3 of the 20th century had anything like that. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit the state of Texas 100% came to mind during this part of the reading. 1y
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TheBookHippie I‘ll be back. Celebrating my kiddo today. My menopause baby is 15 today!! 1y
ravenlee I think these were good questions but we didn‘t really get answers. Memory is how we store experiences, consciousness is the store of memories we can access, dreams float up from the pre- or un-conscious. 1y
kspenmoll @ravenlee I agree. For me It was a good review of Freud & all his theories-a reminder if how entrenched his ideas are in our culture. 1y
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Chrissyreadit I agree @ravenlee @kspenmoll - I do see how memory is stored, as I see reactions to trauma and I also know our sub conscious creates safety for us in both functional and non functional ways. 1y
Chrissyreadit @TheBookHippie happy Birthing Day 😘 1y
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll It is amazing how entrenched it is, it‘s weird how many religious people use his ideology 🤪 1y
TheBookHippie It‘s interesting how trauma can impact dreamworld and put all the theories on their heads. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie happy baby having day! I do find it interesting that some of these ideas are still very prevalent in certain parts of society. Oddly, it seems to be the ones who are very anti-psychology. What‘s sad is that Freud has been debunked in so many ways, especially in his dream psychology. (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee I think the point wasn‘t to give answers. Later in this week‘s reading came the discussion of each generation and each individual needing to find the answers for themselves that are right for them. This may be just the same. 1y
GingerAntics @kspenmoll I find this entrenchment so interesting since we live in a society and still largely sees mental health as separate and unnecessary, and mental illness as mere weakness. I think what‘s even sadder is that Freud has largely been debunked, but this is what we still cling to as a society. 1y
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In search of my last post, I stumbled upon this one and couldn‘t help myself. I guess we can tell which one is the favourite child. 🤣😂🤣
#SophiesWorld #JosteinGaarder #Philosophy #WesternPhilosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

TheBookHippie Brilliant. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Also Define good? Someone who doesn't know their own body.......not going to be that 'good'. LOL (edited) 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 😂🤣😂 that is SUCH a good point. I mean, it‘s not a parent‘s job to make sure their children grow up to be good in bed, but it‘s certainly their job to make sure they have all the tools and proper values to be good in bed… if that makes sense. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics and safe and know how it works and be able to decipher health issues. People 🤦🏻‍♀️ 1y
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie EXACTLY!!! They don‘t need like a crash coarse on techniques or anything, but they need to know about consent, the mutual nature, they need to know their own bodies, what‘s normal and healthy, what requires a doctor‘s visit. These are 100% things we should be teaching our children. 1y
Chrissyreadit I have to admit I need to learn MORE about masturbation- I have a parent looking for vibrator info for an adult child with special needs and I have no idea how to get her that info !!!! 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit that is one open parent. It seems most people write off disabled people as somehow asexual, which is tragic. I hope you abs the parent can find something suitable. 1y
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Reading the Freud chapter made me think of the time this joke was created and a bunch of conservative parents crashed the site trying to buy it. I‘m not sure if I should laugh or cry.
(Yes, this is a real product. It‘s a medical device used when children need to be restrained for medical treatments. It‘s usually a last resort type of thing. I‘ve heard it‘s very helpful in an MRI.)

JaclynW Seriously awful! 1y
GingerAntics @JaclynW I swear people are truly twisted. How is this not child abuse outside of the very limited medical setting it‘s used in? 1y
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TheBookHippie OHHH MYYY LORT! Pure evil. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie IT‘S NOT REAL!!! Don‘t worry. But some crazy, “pure evil” (totally agree with you on that front) Christian parents crashes the site that made this joke to begin with. These people seriously will go to any length to enforce their own twisted will on other people, even innocent children. God they damage they have done, not just to their children, but to society as a whole. 1y
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I meant the parents crashing the site! 😫 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie yeah, that was terrifying. I feel SO bad for their children!!! How can people think this is acceptable behaviour?! So sick. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I do have to have MANY MANY conversations with parents about masturbation being normal and healthy. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit do you really? It‘s sad that grown adults still haven‘t gotten that memo. I feel bad for the repression those parents have felt and hope the children aren‘t learning the same repression. 1y
Chrissyreadit @GingerAntics l live in a very Christian area. 1y
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit sadly, I‘m not even sure that‘s a prerequisite anymore. It seems every major religion and half of all philosophies have a prohibition on it. I mean, I guess when the world needed more people, larger groups to survive and people got married as soon as they could reproduce, sure I guess (it still leaves out the prepubescent exploration), but it‘s so outdated. People are literally healthier when they do. I just don‘t understand. 1y
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#sophiesworld #philosophy #falltreasures #19thcentury #Hegel #Kierkegaard #Marx #Darwin
Catching up on my reading for tomorrow while my son gets bloodwork done #readingincars #alwaysreading

Alwaysbeenaloverofbooks 🙌🏻📚🙌🏻 1y
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http://www.joanchittister.org/articles/hildegard-bingen-12th-century-feminist

#DeadPhilosophersSociety

Feast of St. Hildegard is September 17th

Think Hilde is based on her ? I do 😂🤍

kspenmoll Celebrate her on the 17th!!! Thanks for the article💕 (edited) 1y
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Bookwomble No, he didn't believe that. There is no directionality or intentionality in evolutionary theory, rather a process of adaptation to changing environmental circumstances to help ensure survival to breeding and, in some cases, nurturing age. 1y
TheBookHippie I think survival of the fittest for sure. It‘s really a huge deep dive theory to explore. What would he think now was a question I thought of. 1y
ravenlee I don‘t think there‘s really a “more” or “better” here, rather a “best-suited for a particular condition.” But what if those conditions change, what then? We‘re seeing it with climate change, with animals being so well-suited to their particular situation that they can‘t adapt quickly enough to survive. Are they too evolved at this point? 1y
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TheBookHippie @ravenlee I agree. Climate change and humans throw a wrench into it. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee I think that‘s where humans are going to hurt themselves here. People more adapted to more extreme temps are going to do better as the world reaches critical mass on climate change. Darwin definitely didn‘t see a better or worse, but he did see better adapted. We‘re all going to have to adapt in the coming decades or we‘re not going to make it. 1y
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TheBookHippie I remember this from nursing school with a lot of illnesses and sexually transmitted diseases. Blew my mind. 1y
ravenlee So weird. 1y
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s kind of a terrifying mind. That means ever pandemic and epidemic in the world existed long before humans ever did. It‘s just mutation on mutation. 1y
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TheBookHippie Yes. Diabolical 1y
ravenlee So much “irony” going on in these chapters now. I can see why Hilde‘s getting frustrated with her father, because I am, too. 1y
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie oh good it‘s not just me!!! 1y
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