MartinHagglund

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

Only two questions this week. It was a fairly short section.
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@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Oy. It just amazes me more that people think the promise is golden paved roads and riches when they die. They missed the heaven as on earth? 🤷🏻‍♀️ 6d

TheBookHippie But no. No promised land I think we‘re backsliding at an alarming rate!!!!! 6d

ravenlee Agree with Christine. Things have gotten so much worse in the last forty years. 6d

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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee absolutely agree with the backsliding. Since Obama took office it seems people are more than happy to be openly racist. It seems the backsliding really picked up speed at that point. 4d

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics it‘s more to me like the country is now like where I live has always been which is frightening and exhausting all at once. 4d

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that is truly terrifying!!! 4d

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

Whoops, forgot to post. I guess there is one advantage to waking up early with a migraine… I think.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

Chrissyreadit Nope 6d

GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit 🤣😂🤣🧡🧡🧡 I think this perfectly sums up my position as well. Hell, it IS my position. 6d

TheBookHippie Because that‘s worked in the past….. aka um no. (edited) 6d

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TheBookHippie @Chrissyreadit 🏆 6d

ravenlee No more than to protect me from cancer or other illness. No divinity has ever prevented catastrophe - and has, in fact, (if you believe the holy books) caused more than a few. 6d

Graywacke 🤦🏻‍♂️ 5d

GingerAntics @ravenlee that is absolutely a fair statement!!! There are a lot of famines and pestilence that deities have supposedly thrown at mankind. 4d

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 🤣😂🤣 4d

GingerAntics @Graywacke that‘s about right! 4d

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie This is interesting to me like people who take the Bible literal or atheist saying you believe what?! I‘m not sure I could separate me from the text. (edited) 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I was having the same thought. I think I would find it very hard to separate myself from what I was reading, at least when it came to the Christian Bible. I think if it was a religious text I hadn‘t been raised with it might be easier. Maybe not the Jewish Bible either since most of it is in the Christian Bible, but the Quran probably would be easier to separate… although they have the same first several books, so maybe not. 2w

ravenlee I‘ve been meaning to read the Bible, as I‘ve only ever read sections (in a literature class juxtaposed with Greek myth - it was heavenly, if you‘ll pardon the pun), but it‘s hard even to approach it as a secular read by an atheist. 2w

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GingerAntics @ravenlee that actually sounds like a really fun class. It‘s such a sacred book to so much of our nation‘s history and population that it would definitely be hard. I‘m just not sure if it‘s doable to approach the Bible as just a piece of literature. 2w

Graywacke I read the Bible as literature. I‘m atheist and see it as fully human and found it brilliant in its own way. It‘s also awful. But what was valuable for me was that literary takes on the religious texts allow you to respect the text without worrying about where you stand religiously. Religious and non-religious people can discuss these aspects together without the usual tensions. 2w

GingerAntics @Graywacke hm, I hadn‘t thought about it from that perspective. I think some religious people would be open to these discussions. Others would probably use it as an opportunity to convert people. 🙄 2w

Graywacke @GingerAntics Right. Completely agree. You can‘t discuss with someone who doesn‘t want to discuss. Requires openness. 🙂 2w

GingerAntics @Graywacke there seems to be a lot less openness these days, too. 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie No. To say so is to say the life or person or time was meaningless or worthless. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie THANK YOU!!! I just don‘t get this callousness toward life and death, and let‘s face it, a total abandonment of love. How can you genuinely love someone if you refuse to grieve them and don‘t even want to because it‘s god‘s way, they‘re in a better place, and you‘ll see them again some day? Ugh 2w

ravenlee Grief and suffering are the admission price for the love and affection we feel for others. Without the downside there‘s no way to really appreciate the time we have with our loved ones. Anyone who doesn‘t mourn the loss doesn‘t truly feel. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly!!! 2w

Branwen @GingerAntics @ravenlee ravenlee I love this sentiment! So true! 💕 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

I don‘t know why, but I love hearing about, learning about, and discussing the importance of funerary practices… maybe it‘s just fun to say the word funerary. 🤷🏼‍♀️
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Our culture doesn‘t do death well. IMO. I love learning about differing practices and I love the idea of death doulas to work like birth doulas I read that in a book last year or two years ago and can‘t stop thinking about how that is a good thing. 2w

TheBookHippie As for defining your life some Christian funerals are so bad. So so bad. All fear and you could be in this coffin repent!! Personally cremate me throw me in the ocean or somewhere in Chicago and feed someone and donate books in my memory. People are weird about death. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie a death doula. This sounds intriguing. I feel like this could be very helpful. We genuinely do no do death at all. We just ignore it and hope it goes away or something. I think of people who are on hospice and their families never come to visit. They even say “if they die in the middle of the night, just wait until morning to call.” Is the death doula for the person dying or the bereaved? 2w

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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie is it me, or are funerals like that taking this horrible moment in people‘s lives and using it basically as advertising? It‘s like hell houses. Scaring people into doing what you want them to do, keeping your church in business essentially, is coercion, and I‘m pretty sure Jesus would not approve. 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics death doulas are for the person dying. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s what I was hoping. They definitely need a few of those on staff at every nursing and assisted living facility. No one should die alone. 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics https://inelda.org/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/well/doulas-death-end-of-life.html https://www.webmd.com/palliative-care/features/end-of-life-death-doulas 2w

ravenlee I don‘t know. I feel like funerary practices are for the living, the mourners, more than for the deceased. I remember when my granddad died (I never met him, he was only a part of my life briefly right before he died) and there was a whole kerfuffle about his funeral. My aunt was mad at my mom for not attending, because she‘d chosen to see him before he died and couldn‘t afford the trip again. My uncles were upset that the step-family made it all 2w

ravenlee about his life with them instead of even mentioning the eight children he‘d abandoned when he divorced my grandmother. My aunt criticized the music choice (Tears in Heaven, when granddad was an old-school country and western-cowboy song fan). The whole thing just sounded miserable for everyone, and had nothing at all to do with the man in the coffin. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee that was DEFINITELY for the living. When my grandmother‘s older sister died, my grandmother threw a fit because the rosary wasn‘t said at her wake. It didn‘t matter to her that Aunt Owa didn‘t WANT that at her wake. 🙄 My mother had to take her out of the room and make her chill, so she sat in the wake and pouted for half the time until the stories people told had everyone laughing. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee I tend to think all funerary practices are for the living, though. It‘s part of our grieving process. It‘s how we come to terms maybe. Hägglund says this when he said that funerary practices are how we handle the fact that the end of someone‘s life means they end of their spiritual participation. 2w

ravenlee I‘m not sure it can be the defining moment of the spiritual life for the living, though. It feels like if it‘s the culminating moment it should be for the star of the show, as it were. But for the grieving, it‘s ultimately just one moment of many. How many times will we grieve in our own lives? So I‘ll agree with some but not all, I suppose. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee yeah, I can see that. We grieve many things, many times in life. Maybe the moment a person defines spirituality for themselves and does what is right for them instead of what they‘ve been told to believe or practice is the defining moment? But then some, possibly many, would never have a defining moment. 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

I think this is a huge part of current discussions in America right now.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie I just cannot answer without being hateful 🤣🤦🏻‍♀️. We are supposed to live in a democracy currently we live in a theocracy and it‘s getting worse. 2w

TheBookHippie Cultural norms depends spiritual depends it‘s all so dependent of the people. Like now majority believe Roe should stay it‘s a cultural norm we can not live by it because of a few “religious” folk. It‘s interesting to think about. And all those folks irritate my spirit. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie same! It‘s sickening and disheartening. Some states are going to let women die of ectopic pregnancies because they don‘t know a damn thing about medicine. How many women are going to die needlessly, just because they‘re women? 2w

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ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think the worst part is how many women who‘ve suffered pregnancy loss (my SIL, for example, who had at least one miscarriage and an ectopic) are rabidly anti-choice because of their experience. Yet without the “choice” their experiences could/would have ended in their own death, as treatment for miscarriage/ectopic pregnancies is under threat. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee that‘s what I don‘t get. Not all women who have lost pregnancies are like that, but it seems ridiculous for that to be their reaction. “I‘m hurting because I didn‘t have a choice in the matter, so no one else should get a choice either.” 🙄 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics just ugh. 2w

TheBookHippie @ravenlee I almost died from an ectopic pregnancy and I had a baby die in the second trimester and my body would not go into labor so abortion. But I‘m pro abortion anyway . However so many deaths are going to happen. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie women are going to die because they need an abortion and can‘t get one and women ads going to die because they‘re desperate and get back alley abortions that end up killing them. 2w

ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie exactly. But what I hear is “if you‘d been through what I‘ve been through you would NEVER give up a baby.” Which completely ignores the medical necessity of many/most abortions and tries to paint the whole picture black and white when everything is very gray. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee no one else‘s life is dictated by what one person has been through. Maybe someone wouldn‘t have an abortion after that, maybe they would, maybe they would HAVE to have you to survive. People are SOOO bloody self cantered. 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Separate parts of a whole I understand. It‘s interesting that I‘ve been thinking of loss of community makes it easy for people in power and then this is our reading currently. So many thoughts I‘m still digesting it all. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie yes, it seems like even a page in this book leaves so much to mull over, process, and sort through. 2w

ravenlee I like this concept better than the original version, I admit. Fandom trinity>canon trinity. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee 😂🤣😂 fandom trinity… I like that 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Community is everything. Power in community is so underrated!! 2w

TheBookHippie America in itself is a myth. In my opinion. All of it. 2w

TheBookHippie Individualism in bring your gifts to the community to make it a whole “being” that operates for the good of all. Part of online downfall is lack of in person community you can create online community like us here but it takes time effort care etc. 2w

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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie totally agree about the American myth. There is such a mythology built around what America is, then that mythology is taught in schools as true and people genuinely believe this mythology is reality. It‘s almost like the religion of Americanness. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I agree with all of this. Community, and the power of it is SO important, and unfortunately we‘re losing touch with this due to all of the divisiveness. The only real individualism that exists is the individual strengths that each member of a given community bring to the table for the good of everyone. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie The point of community is that everyone‘s weaknesses are covered by people who have those strengths, and everyone‘s strengths cover someone else‘s weaknesses. Everyone has what they need, no one goes without. I think this ties into what he was saying about embracing our vulnerabilities. 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics exactly that is community ♥️ 2w

ravenlee I‘ve been reading a lot about the myth of the American cowboy, the persona the Republicans have been pushing for the last 30-40 years, the go-it-alone white man standing firm against all threats, defending his family and property with his gun and his faith. Heather Cox Richardson has some really good history of that myth. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee that always seemed like the dumbest myth to me. That‘s probably where Bonanza and similar shows were so popular. Look at these paragons of individualism and American exceptionalism with their guns and their Protestantism. Oy 2w

ravenlee @GingerAntics I never read the Little House books as a kid, but my MIL gave them to me years ago. I tried to read the first and failed. When kiddo was about 4 I tried to share them with her, but the second book pissed me off too much. The family moved to “Indian country” and spent a year building their little house, but after months of labor, deathly illness, and struggle, it turned out the father was too stupid/lazy to make sure they were in the 2w

ravenlee Right spot, and he was wrong by a couple miles. So they had to abandon their homestead and do it all over again, and clearly it was all the injuns‘ fault! So my take from this beloved series was that Pa was a shiftless idiot and he was everything wrong with the westward movement… 2w

ravenlee But clearly that (and all the TV series you mentioned) is a paragon of American individualism, virtue, and justice. 🙄🤢 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee 😂🤣😂 that is accurate!!! I struggled with those books as well. The more I read about the real life Ingles family, the more I hate those books, too. Laura is everything that was wrong with people during the depression era. (edited) 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie It needs community. Compassion. Empathy. Equality. Altruism…just be a good human 🤦🏻‍♀️ 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think this tied nicely with what he said later in this section about spirituality requiring us to choose that which is true, good, and just. 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Right? How hard is that?! Ugh. People are so much happier even if community means 2-5 other people. 2w

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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s the introvert‘s community, isn‘t it? 😂🤣😂 There are many of us, but we never gather in groups of more than 5. If we have to do a whole community meeting, we go virtual. 🤣😂🤣 Obviously. 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 🏆 2w

ravenlee The ending of Buffy comes to mind. There‘s no reason for there to be only one. Everyone with the potential needs to act. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee I‘ve never seen Buffy, but “everyone with the potential needs to act” makes so much sense. 2w

ravenlee The whole series was based on there being one Slayer, with potential Slayers kind of in the wings. At the very end, they work some magic to enable every potential Slayer to become a Slayer, so there will be many to fight the demons and vampires instead of it falling on the shoulders of a single teenage girl. We don‘t need A savior. We need everyone to work together, each doing what they are able. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee yes to that… absolutely 💯 2w

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GingerAntics

This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin H�gglund

What would this look like?
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie I wrestle with this. I‘m not religious per se but some familial traditions I keep may appear so. I think it‘s how you view and believe things. Religiosity is so TOXIC. Power money etc. So spirituality to be true world have to be secular, no? Still trying to put words to it clearly. 2w

GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it is such a hard topic to find the right words to. I know religion is not a word that even comes into it for me. I agree about the toxicity as well. I agree that secular spirituality seems the only way to remove that toxicity, but even that doesn‘t seem quite right. 2w

TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I agree it‘s not quite right. But 🤷🏻‍♀️ still mulling it over. 2w

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Graywacke Hope I‘m not interfering with a group read. Apologies if so. I think being spiritual is difficult regardless or your religious beliefs. I think they are separate things and some people try to use religion as a path to becoming spiritual. (Some people use books) 2w

GingerAntics @Graywacke that‘s a valid point. They are definitely two different things. They can go together but don‘t necessarily have to, despite some religious people thinking they somehow have the corner on the spirituality market. 2w

ravenlee I know several people who are spiritual but not religious. My mom, for instance, finds great comfort and joy working in her garden, communing with nature. She was raised Catholic but has always struggled with the misogyny and other BS that comes with it. She found some of what she felt was missing right in her own backyard, literally. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee girl, yes!!! I grew up Catholic and after realising I just didn‘t have a Protestant mindset, I considered returning to it, but after reading the catechism I realised I wasn‘t down with that either. Eventually, I realised I wasn‘t Christian at all (and that in many ways the whole thing is abusive, untenable, BS). 2w

ravenlee It absolutely is abusive, untenable BS! I know a lot of people are working to “reclaim” Christianity in various flavors for women, LGBTQIA+, the poor, etc., but at its core it‘s all just rotten. 2w

GingerAntics @ravenlee it‘s a broken system and absolutely has been since 380AD when Rome took over. Prior to that, it was a spirituality, not a religion. 2w

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