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This Life
This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom | Martin Hgglund
186 posts | 4 read | 1 reading | 12 to read
A profound, original, and accessible book that offers a new secular vision of how we can lead our lives. Ranging from fundamental existential questions to the most pressing social issues of our time, This Life shows why our commitment to freedom and democracy should lead us beyond both religion and capitalism. In this groundbreaking book, the philosopher Martin Hgglund challenges our received notions of faith and freedom. The faith we need to cultivate, he argues, is not a religious faith in eternity but a secular faith devoted to our finite life together. He shows that all spiritual questions of freedom are inseparable from economic and material conditions. What ultimately matters is how we treat one another in this life, and what we do with our time together. Hgglund develops new existential and political principles while transforming our understanding of spiritual life. His critique of religion takes us to the heart of what it means to mourn our loved ones, be committed, and care about a sustainable world. His critique of capitalism demonstrates that we fail to sustain our democratic values because our lives depend on wage labor. In clear and pathbreaking terms, Hgglund explains why capitalism is inimical to our freedom, and why we should instead pursue a novel form of democratic socialism. In developing his vision of an emancipated secular life, Hgglund engages with great philosophers from Aristotle to Hegel and Marx, literary writers from Dante to Proust and Knausgaard, political economists from Mill to Keynes and Hayek, and religious thinkers from Augustine to Kierkegaard andMartin Luther King, Jr. This Life gives us new access to our pastfor the sake of a different future.
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GingerAntics
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Political Theology sounds right up modern America‘s alley. Sadly, it‘s not constitutional… not that that‘s stopping anyone.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️to angry even to form words to answer. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it is a frustrating time… now they‘re moving to make separation of church and state unconstitutional. 🙄 1mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Alt Right Religion is too.. the two combined on purpose would need to be dismantled. 2mo
ravenlee Alt right religion and capitalism are so intertwined they are effectively the same thing @TheBookHippie - oh, I saw one of the GOP fascists (can‘t find which one, they‘re all interchangeable) celebrating the RvsW overturn talking about religious conservatives needing to divorce the party from big business. GOP splinter groups…interesting times. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee the GOP *is* big business. That‘s so cute. Interesting times indeed. Agree about alt right and capitalism bring effectively the same. 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I‘ve been debating if it‘s even possible to separate church and state. That‘s the only way I can see allowing people to practice the spirituality of their choice (or none at all), while still maintaining a social structure that benefits all “each according to their abilities, each according to their needs.” The religions themselves would have to change. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics It has to be kept separate or we are doomed. Not just now but long after we are gone. Or we will be Afghanistan which is basically Trump Christianity Capitalism. 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee Nothing shocks me. They are one in the same and who knows what these fools will do next. I cannot fathom .......ugh. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh I totally agree. Unfortunately, we are moving closer and closer to that with this bloody court. We need to start impeaching the ones that lie under oath to congress about not overturning legal precedent. 1mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee we could be screwed. I wonder how long until they attempt to make anyone who is not Christian illegal? This group could end up illegal. Come at me you conservative nut bags. 1mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Yes. Community is how to avoid this. But … Also Indians understood community and so do a lot of groups that get targeted by alt right religion coincidence? I think not. 2mo
ravenlee The tragedy of the commons writ large. 2mo
ravenlee @TheBookHippie also the matriarchal cultures that predate warmongering patriarchies. 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee I‘ve always wondered how people can be so divorced from basic cause and effect of their actions and how everyone just looks out for themselves, while children are constantly pestered with “don‘t be selfish.” 🙄 It‘s such hypocrisy, but now I understand where it comes from. 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee I JUST TOLD MY SON THIS YESTERDAY!!!! About Matriarchal society. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics ME ME ME ME ME ME ........because GOD. That's what the men say......the old white men. The WORST part for me is all the WHITE WOMEN who go along support and are even worse than the men. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh my god yes… somehow the women are the most militant. 1mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie RIGHT?! Capitalism is such inherent evil. 2mo
ravenlee I just cannot understand how capitalism is supposed to be a long-term system. It‘s completely unsustainable. It requires constant expansion based on consumption with no endgame. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie exactly. I never thought about it before reading this book (I thought the problem was materialism and greed, but those are really the problems with capitalism) but it‘s not going to end well. Unfortunately, right now, it feels like conservatives are doubling down. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I hope it is their last gasp of breath before death but I am thinking I won't live to see that happen...... 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie same… I‘d love for this to be the death gasp. The conservatives aren‘t going to understand the backlash that is going to happen. It‘s already starting and somehow wanting to make our own medical decisions makes us extremists. 1mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Yup. BLM marches. Ugh. 2mo
ravenlee Standard procedure. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee yup! It almost sounded verbatim what happened when T**** wanted to take that awkward photo, awkwardly holding a Bible in front of that church. It‘s roughly the same lol cation, too. Not much changes, huh? 2mo
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TheBookHippie @GingerAntics nope. Nothing changes as @Ravenlee says S.O.P. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee yup… nothing really changes 1mo
ravenlee I can‘t remember and can‘t find it after a brief search - did we pick our next book? 1mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee we had not. I just posted our next book and tagged everyone so you should have it about the same time you get this response. 😂 I figured I‘d wait until after the 4th before even spinning the wheel of wisdom, but it has not spoken!!! 1mo
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GingerAntics
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Pickpick

Quite a dense, but important read. This really speaks to where we are in America right now. It leaves me with a few questions, though. I will defend your right to believe as you see fit, believe what you believe is “true, good, and just,” even if I completely disagree with those believes, even if those beliefs are not my own. It is the American way. Will you extend the same constitutional courtesy to me?
👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻

GingerAntics I look like you. Would your answer be different if I didn‘t? I talk like you. Would your answer be different if I didn‘t? I fear the answer in modern America is a resounding no to the first and even more hostile to the second and third as we currently stand. #ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety 2mo
TheBookHippie ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ALLOFTHIS. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I can‘t believe we‘ve finished the book. I was shocked when the audiobook suddenly kicked to the credits. This one was definitely denser than Sophie. 2mo
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TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I am so so so glad we read it!!!! It has been a gift to us all these months. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it really has! I wish I could remember who recommended it. I want to thank her! 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s what I thought. @kspenmoll thank you for bringing this wonderful book to the group!!! 🧡🧡🧡 1mo
kspenmoll @GingerAntics You are welcome. I am behind all of you hut determined to finish it this summer. 1mo
GingerAntics @kspenmoll you got this!!! The audiobook definitely helps if you can get your hands on it. Feel free to jump into conversations as you get there. If you tag us, we will gladly jump in with you. 1mo
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TheBookHippie
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I can‘t believe we‘re finishing this #deadphilosopherssociety read!

Can‘t wait to see what‘s next when we spin the wheel !

ravenlee I finished it last night and was having the same thoughts! 2mo
kspenmoll I am sorry I fell down on the job of reading this.what I did read I & our discussions taught me so much. Too tough a work year. 2mo
TheBookHippie @kspenmoll I loved your participation and I so get it!! It was a year… phew. 2mo
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TheBookHippie @ravenlee it‘s been a part of my thoughts for so many reads and the news and on and on … 2mo
ravenlee @kspenmoll this was a book that definitely requires full attention. I kept trying to read while kiddo and hubby played chess and was rereading things three and four times (they engage in a LOT of smack talk). No shame in not having the bandwidth at the moment. 2mo
tokorowilliamwallace How do I participate? 2mo
TheBookHippie @tokorowilliamwallace we just finished this book. Follow the hashtag #DEADPHILOSOPHERSSOCIETY for our next read. 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Oy. It just amazes me more that people think the promise is golden paved roads and riches when they die. They missed the heaven as on earth? 🤷🏻‍♀️ 2mo
TheBookHippie But no. No promised land I think we‘re backsliding at an alarming rate!!!!! 2mo
ravenlee Agree with Christine. Things have gotten so much worse in the last forty years. 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee absolutely agree with the backsliding. Since Obama took office it seems people are more than happy to be openly racist. It seems the backsliding really picked up speed at that point. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics it‘s more to me like the country is now like where I live has always been which is frightening and exhausting all at once. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that is truly terrifying!!! 2mo
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GingerAntics
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Chrissyreadit Nope 2mo
GingerAntics @Chrissyreadit 🤣😂🤣🧡🧡🧡 I think this perfectly sums up my position as well. Hell, it IS my position. 2mo
TheBookHippie Because that‘s worked in the past….. aka um no. (edited) 2mo
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ravenlee No more than to protect me from cancer or other illness. No divinity has ever prevented catastrophe - and has, in fact, (if you believe the holy books) caused more than a few. 2mo
Graywacke 🤦🏻‍♂️ 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee that is absolutely a fair statement!!! There are a lot of famines and pestilence that deities have supposedly thrown at mankind. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie 🤣😂🤣 2mo
GingerAntics @Graywacke that‘s about right! 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie This is interesting to me like people who take the Bible literal or atheist saying you believe what?! I‘m not sure I could separate me from the text. (edited) 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I was having the same thought. I think I would find it very hard to separate myself from what I was reading, at least when it came to the Christian Bible. I think if it was a religious text I hadn‘t been raised with it might be easier. Maybe not the Jewish Bible either since most of it is in the Christian Bible, but the Quran probably would be easier to separate… although they have the same first several books, so maybe not. 2mo
ravenlee I‘ve been meaning to read the Bible, as I‘ve only ever read sections (in a literature class juxtaposed with Greek myth - it was heavenly, if you‘ll pardon the pun), but it‘s hard even to approach it as a secular read by an atheist. 2mo
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GingerAntics @ravenlee that actually sounds like a really fun class. It‘s such a sacred book to so much of our nation‘s history and population that it would definitely be hard. I‘m just not sure if it‘s doable to approach the Bible as just a piece of literature. 2mo
Graywacke I read the Bible as literature. I‘m atheist and see it as fully human and found it brilliant in its own way. It‘s also awful. But what was valuable for me was that literary takes on the religious texts allow you to respect the text without worrying about where you stand religiously. Religious and non-religious people can discuss these aspects together without the usual tensions. 2mo
GingerAntics @Graywacke hm, I hadn‘t thought about it from that perspective. I think some religious people would be open to these discussions. Others would probably use it as an opportunity to convert people. 🙄 2mo
Graywacke @GingerAntics Right. Completely agree. You can‘t discuss with someone who doesn‘t want to discuss. Requires openness. 🙂 2mo
GingerAntics @Graywacke there seems to be a lot less openness these days, too. 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie No. To say so is to say the life or person or time was meaningless or worthless. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie THANK YOU!!! I just don‘t get this callousness toward life and death, and let‘s face it, a total abandonment of love. How can you genuinely love someone if you refuse to grieve them and don‘t even want to because it‘s god‘s way, they‘re in a better place, and you‘ll see them again some day? Ugh 2mo
ravenlee Grief and suffering are the admission price for the love and affection we feel for others. Without the downside there‘s no way to really appreciate the time we have with our loved ones. Anyone who doesn‘t mourn the loss doesn‘t truly feel. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly!!! 2mo
Branwen @GingerAntics @ravenlee ravenlee I love this sentiment! So true! 💕 2mo
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GingerAntics
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I don‘t know why, but I love hearing about, learning about, and discussing the importance of funerary practices… maybe it‘s just fun to say the word funerary. 🤷🏼‍♀️
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Our culture doesn‘t do death well. IMO. I love learning about differing practices and I love the idea of death doulas to work like birth doulas I read that in a book last year or two years ago and can‘t stop thinking about how that is a good thing. 2mo
TheBookHippie As for defining your life some Christian funerals are so bad. So so bad. All fear and you could be in this coffin repent!! Personally cremate me throw me in the ocean or somewhere in Chicago and feed someone and donate books in my memory. People are weird about death. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie a death doula. This sounds intriguing. I feel like this could be very helpful. We genuinely do no do death at all. We just ignore it and hope it goes away or something. I think of people who are on hospice and their families never come to visit. They even say “if they die in the middle of the night, just wait until morning to call.” Is the death doula for the person dying or the bereaved? 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie is it me, or are funerals like that taking this horrible moment in people‘s lives and using it basically as advertising? It‘s like hell houses. Scaring people into doing what you want them to do, keeping your church in business essentially, is coercion, and I‘m pretty sure Jesus would not approve. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics death doulas are for the person dying. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s what I was hoping. They definitely need a few of those on staff at every nursing and assisted living facility. No one should die alone. 2mo
ravenlee I don‘t know. I feel like funerary practices are for the living, the mourners, more than for the deceased. I remember when my granddad died (I never met him, he was only a part of my life briefly right before he died) and there was a whole kerfuffle about his funeral. My aunt was mad at my mom for not attending, because she‘d chosen to see him before he died and couldn‘t afford the trip again. My uncles were upset that the step-family made it all 2mo
ravenlee about his life with them instead of even mentioning the eight children he‘d abandoned when he divorced my grandmother. My aunt criticized the music choice (Tears in Heaven, when granddad was an old-school country and western-cowboy song fan). The whole thing just sounded miserable for everyone, and had nothing at all to do with the man in the coffin. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee that was DEFINITELY for the living. When my grandmother‘s older sister died, my grandmother threw a fit because the rosary wasn‘t said at her wake. It didn‘t matter to her that Aunt Owa didn‘t WANT that at her wake. 🙄 My mother had to take her out of the room and make her chill, so she sat in the wake and pouted for half the time until the stories people told had everyone laughing. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I tend to think all funerary practices are for the living, though. It‘s part of our grieving process. It‘s how we come to terms maybe. Hägglund says this when he said that funerary practices are how we handle the fact that the end of someone‘s life means they end of their spiritual participation. 2mo
ravenlee I‘m not sure it can be the defining moment of the spiritual life for the living, though. It feels like if it‘s the culminating moment it should be for the star of the show, as it were. But for the grieving, it‘s ultimately just one moment of many. How many times will we grieve in our own lives? So I‘ll agree with some but not all, I suppose. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee yeah, I can see that. We grieve many things, many times in life. Maybe the moment a person defines spirituality for themselves and does what is right for them instead of what they‘ve been told to believe or practice is the defining moment? But then some, possibly many, would never have a defining moment. 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I just cannot answer without being hateful 🤣🤦🏻‍♀️. We are supposed to live in a democracy currently we live in a theocracy and it‘s getting worse. 2mo
TheBookHippie Cultural norms depends spiritual depends it‘s all so dependent of the people. Like now majority believe Roe should stay it‘s a cultural norm we can not live by it because of a few “religious” folk. It‘s interesting to think about. And all those folks irritate my spirit. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie same! It‘s sickening and disheartening. Some states are going to let women die of ectopic pregnancies because they don‘t know a damn thing about medicine. How many women are going to die needlessly, just because they‘re women? 2mo
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ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think the worst part is how many women who‘ve suffered pregnancy loss (my SIL, for example, who had at least one miscarriage and an ectopic) are rabidly anti-choice because of their experience. Yet without the “choice” their experiences could/would have ended in their own death, as treatment for miscarriage/ectopic pregnancies is under threat. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee that‘s what I don‘t get. Not all women who have lost pregnancies are like that, but it seems ridiculous for that to be their reaction. “I‘m hurting because I didn‘t have a choice in the matter, so no one else should get a choice either.” 🙄 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee I almost died from an ectopic pregnancy and I had a baby die in the second trimester and my body would not go into labor so abortion. But I‘m pro abortion anyway . However so many deaths are going to happen. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie women are going to die because they need an abortion and can‘t get one and women ads going to die because they‘re desperate and get back alley abortions that end up killing them. 2mo
ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie exactly. But what I hear is “if you‘d been through what I‘ve been through you would NEVER give up a baby.” Which completely ignores the medical necessity of many/most abortions and tries to paint the whole picture black and white when everything is very gray. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee no one else‘s life is dictated by what one person has been through. Maybe someone wouldn‘t have an abortion after that, maybe they would, maybe they would HAVE to have you to survive. People are SOOO bloody self cantered. 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Separate parts of a whole I understand. It‘s interesting that I‘ve been thinking of loss of community makes it easy for people in power and then this is our reading currently. So many thoughts I‘m still digesting it all. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie yes, it seems like even a page in this book leaves so much to mull over, process, and sort through. 2mo
ravenlee I like this concept better than the original version, I admit. Fandom trinity>canon trinity. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee 😂🤣😂 fandom trinity… I like that 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie Community is everything. Power in community is so underrated!! 2mo
TheBookHippie America in itself is a myth. In my opinion. All of it. 2mo
TheBookHippie Individualism in bring your gifts to the community to make it a whole “being” that operates for the good of all. Part of online downfall is lack of in person community you can create online community like us here but it takes time effort care etc. 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie totally agree about the American myth. There is such a mythology built around what America is, then that mythology is taught in schools as true and people genuinely believe this mythology is reality. It‘s almost like the religion of Americanness. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I agree with all of this. Community, and the power of it is SO important, and unfortunately we‘re losing touch with this due to all of the divisiveness. The only real individualism that exists is the individual strengths that each member of a given community bring to the table for the good of everyone. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie The point of community is that everyone‘s weaknesses are covered by people who have those strengths, and everyone‘s strengths cover someone else‘s weaknesses. Everyone has what they need, no one goes without. I think this ties into what he was saying about embracing our vulnerabilities. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics exactly that is community ♥️ 2mo
ravenlee I‘ve been reading a lot about the myth of the American cowboy, the persona the Republicans have been pushing for the last 30-40 years, the go-it-alone white man standing firm against all threats, defending his family and property with his gun and his faith. Heather Cox Richardson has some really good history of that myth. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee that always seemed like the dumbest myth to me. That‘s probably where Bonanza and similar shows were so popular. Look at these paragons of individualism and American exceptionalism with their guns and their Protestantism. Oy 2mo
ravenlee @GingerAntics I never read the Little House books as a kid, but my MIL gave them to me years ago. I tried to read the first and failed. When kiddo was about 4 I tried to share them with her, but the second book pissed me off too much. The family moved to “Indian country” and spent a year building their little house, but after months of labor, deathly illness, and struggle, it turned out the father was too stupid/lazy to make sure they were in the 2mo
ravenlee Right spot, and he was wrong by a couple miles. So they had to abandon their homestead and do it all over again, and clearly it was all the injuns‘ fault! So my take from this beloved series was that Pa was a shiftless idiot and he was everything wrong with the westward movement… 2mo
ravenlee But clearly that (and all the TV series you mentioned) is a paragon of American individualism, virtue, and justice. 🙄🤢 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee 😂🤣😂 that is accurate!!! I struggled with those books as well. The more I read about the real life Ingles family, the more I hate those books, too. Laura is everything that was wrong with people during the depression era. (edited) 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie It needs community. Compassion. Empathy. Equality. Altruism…just be a good human 🤦🏻‍♀️ 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think this tied nicely with what he said later in this section about spirituality requiring us to choose that which is true, good, and just. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Right? How hard is that?! Ugh. People are so much happier even if community means 2-5 other people. 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s the introvert‘s community, isn‘t it? 😂🤣😂 There are many of us, but we never gather in groups of more than 5. If we have to do a whole community meeting, we go virtual. 🤣😂🤣 Obviously. 2mo
ravenlee The ending of Buffy comes to mind. There‘s no reason for there to be only one. Everyone with the potential needs to act. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I‘ve never seen Buffy, but “everyone with the potential needs to act” makes so much sense. 2mo
ravenlee The whole series was based on there being one Slayer, with potential Slayers kind of in the wings. At the very end, they work some magic to enable every potential Slayer to become a Slayer, so there will be many to fight the demons and vampires instead of it falling on the shoulders of a single teenage girl. We don‘t need A savior. We need everyone to work together, each doing what they are able. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee yes to that… absolutely 💯 2mo
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GingerAntics
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TheBookHippie I wrestle with this. I‘m not religious per se but some familial traditions I keep may appear so. I think it‘s how you view and believe things. Religiosity is so TOXIC. Power money etc. So spirituality to be true world have to be secular, no? Still trying to put words to it clearly. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it is such a hard topic to find the right words to. I know religion is not a word that even comes into it for me. I agree about the toxicity as well. I agree that secular spirituality seems the only way to remove that toxicity, but even that doesn‘t seem quite right. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I agree it‘s not quite right. But 🤷🏻‍♀️ still mulling it over. 2mo
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Graywacke Hope I‘m not interfering with a group read. Apologies if so. I think being spiritual is difficult regardless or your religious beliefs. I think they are separate things and some people try to use religion as a path to becoming spiritual. (Some people use books) 2mo
GingerAntics @Graywacke that‘s a valid point. They are definitely two different things. They can go together but don‘t necessarily have to, despite some religious people thinking they somehow have the corner on the spirituality market. 2mo
ravenlee I know several people who are spiritual but not religious. My mom, for instance, finds great comfort and joy working in her garden, communing with nature. She was raised Catholic but has always struggled with the misogyny and other BS that comes with it. She found some of what she felt was missing right in her own backyard, literally. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee girl, yes!!! I grew up Catholic and after realising I just didn‘t have a Protestant mindset, I considered returning to it, but after reading the catechism I realised I wasn‘t down with that either. Eventually, I realised I wasn‘t Christian at all (and that in many ways the whole thing is abusive, untenable, BS). 2mo
ravenlee It absolutely is abusive, untenable BS! I know a lot of people are working to “reclaim” Christianity in various flavors for women, LGBTQIA+, the poor, etc., but at its core it‘s all just rotten. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee it‘s a broken system and absolutely has been since 380AD when Rome took over. Prior to that, it was a spirituality, not a religion. 2mo
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GingerAntics
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Time with others is so important. Shouldn‘t that be out focus? Does anyone need an assault rifle to do this? Just curious.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

jimfields3 Another thought-provoking quote. As one who follows Christ I would reject the conclusion about absolution or at least clarify it. A secular perspective necessitates that, ultimately, our responses to suffering and loss are moot. The Christian and other religious beliefs say our lives have eternal consequences for us and eternal influence on others. (edited) 2mo
GingerAntics @jimfields3 this book is not saying that a secular position makes suffering moot. It actually is arguing for quite the opposite. 2mo
jimfields3 @GingerAntics surely a deeper convo than can be had 451 characters at a time. This quote says to me that absolution keeps us fully engaging with others when the Bible says the opposite: we ought to treat others with love & forgiveness the way God has treated us. From a secular view, with no afterlife, what we do really doesn‘t matter. I can be a jerk, & it won‘t matter once I‘m in the grave. Memory of me as a jerk will die with those who knew me. 2mo
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jimfields3 “Religion” is such a broad topic, and each handles “absolution” differently. I just wanted to share that my perspective—what the Bible says—conflicts with the author‘s quote. Not all absolution works to separate us from each other. 🙂 2mo
GingerAntics @jimfields3 this isn‘t talking about absolution in that sense. It‘s talking about absolution from pain and suffering. As an example, someone dies who is very close to you. You naturally, and rightly, mourn this loss. Someone has died, so you rightfully and naturally mourn that loss of life. Then someone comes along and says “it‘s unchristian to mourn. If you really believed, you would not mourn.” 2mo
GingerAntics @jimfields3 this is a common view held by MANY Christians. Do you now feel closer to the person who said it? Say this personal also was close to the person you grieve. They are not grieving because they believe it is a sin. How close do you feel to this person now? 2mo
GingerAntics @jimfields3 another point made in this book is that with eternity, there is no end to life (spiritual or otherwise), so it‘s actually logical within that framework NOT to grieve or mourn, but it also takes away any meaning to time. Having endless time and no time is all the same. Nothing matters. Nothing is urgent. I wonder if this is why so many Christians are climate change deniers. 2mo
GingerAntics @jimfields3 as far as religion being a broad topic, Hägglund is specifically broad in this sense. The entire book is about a different type of spirituality that is separate from religion, and is grounded in human experience. It is a type of spirituality that makes “Sunday morning Christians” and any other religion‘s equivalent impossible. 2mo
jimfields3 Thanks for providing the context, @GingerAntics for the quote! That example makes sense. I would disagree with that person, and at the right time I would have a talk with him/her based on what the Bible says. Thanks again! 2mo
TheBookHippie Time is love. Live in the here and now. Love hard because this ends. No matter what your belief this life ends. Why spend it any other way than loving 🤷🏻‍♀️ 2mo
TheBookHippie And yah FEAR keeps guns in folks hands. Fear of losing power and money. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie don‘t even get me started on guns 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie exactly!!! I don‘t get the point of living your entire life for the afterlife. How much life, love, and relationship do people miss because “we‘re kingdom living?” 🙄 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics OY vey. Kingdom livers…. 2mo
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Does anything matter to you? Then be cool with your vulnerability… just don‘t embrace it, apparently.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

TheBookHippie To love is to experience extreme sides of joy and pain. But oh the beauty of them both. To live without that is a sin and a waste of the gift of life. 2mo
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At the moment, we are absolutely FAILING at being the United States of America.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

TheBookHippie Seriously at an alarming rate. 2mo
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‼️ANNOUNCEMENT‼️
We will be taking the next week off so everyone has time to catch up and/or let their brain rest. Then we will continue with one section each week for the remaining three sections.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie ♥️♥️🎉🎉🎉 Thanks!!! 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie no prob Bob. That actually works out perfectly. The weekend after we finish is the 4th. Then we can spin the wheel of wisdom again and get our next book! 2mo
ravenlee Perfect! I‘ve been really scrambling this month with too many weekly and daily reads, to the point I don‘t even know where I‘m supposed to be for most of them. 2mo
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TheBookHippie @GingerAntics THE WHEEL SPIN 🎉🎉🥳 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee oh no! I hate that feeling. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I‘m going to try to take a picture with all of our book options in it, just so everyone can see… then we‘ll spin. 2mo
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ravenlee I think people are better about hiding their prejudices now, or presenting them in more subtle terms (the anti-gay cake bakers being defended as standing up for their business rights comes to mind), but a lot of the attitudes are similar. And then Trump let all the creepies out from under their rocks. 2mo
TheBookHippie It‘s the exact same. The same. 🤦🏻‍♀️ 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee oh yeah. He made it okay to be a bigot, so a lot of the subtlety was dropped. 2mo
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TheBookHippie Ha. Not always. Concerning nonviolence: it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. https://teachingamericanhistory.org/blog/malcolm-x-rejects-nonviolent-strategy/ 2mo
TheBookHippie Sometimes protest work sometimes boycotts work voting works but there are times when it must be shown that this we will not take. Look at all the uprising in history. Warsaw, for example or people who sacrificed self to get word out about atrocities. Journalist dying to get us truth it‘s all violent. 2mo
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ravenlee Maintaining “separate but equal” anything requires double the resources and investment, which is inherently inefficient. It also requires the advent of some sort of guard/gatekeeper, who enforces the segregation. If efficiency is the name of the capitalist game, then segregation is clearly counterproductive. 2mo
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ravenlee I think organized religion is complicit in capitalism. Thinking about the Catholic Church, especially pre-Reformation…it‘s all about subjugating the masses and making the little people into quiet little cookie cutters, which is exactly what feeds capitalism. 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee the church is capitalism. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee organised religion gains from capitalism. People who are controlled but capitalism are much easier to coral into pews. 2mo
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ravenlee In a religious sense, that‘s big business. In a secular sense, yes, humanity has royally screwed up everything. We‘ve destroyed our planet and done unspeakable things to each other. The problem seems to be that most people, or at least most people who have any power to change that, are okay with those facts and continuing on that path. As long as they‘re not personally inconvenienced. 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee THIS I agree 💯💯💯. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie just like these people saying we have to accept mass shootings as a price of our freedom. I‘m sleep, but that price is way too high. 2mo
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GingerAntics This ties to the idea that boredom is a hallmark of freedom, but I can remember being bored plenty of times when the boredom came from being restricted from doing something to entertain myself (ie decide for myself how to spend my free time). 3mo
ravenlee Two things that come to mind are those teachers who would always say, “Only boring people are bored,” when some poor student just didn‘t want to choose from the “options” available; and the end of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, when Christopher Robin is going to school soon and he‘s waxing poetic to Pooh about doing nothing. 2mo
ravenlee Isn‘t there a Buddhist (or neo-Buddhist) idea that doing nothing is vital to the soul or internal balance or something? Clearing the mind, focusing on just breathing…isn‘t that doing nothing? 2mo
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GingerAntics @ravenlee I hate those sorts of comments. Just because I‘m not interested in the limited options given doesn‘t make me boring, but it does make me bored. In fact, there is an argument that it actually makes me more interesting because I‘m not doing what everyone else is doing. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I suppose that could be considered nothing, but you‘re breathing which is something. You‘re focusing on that breath which is something. That sounds about right. I think there is something to going to an internal (and hopefully external) quiet space. I definitely think there is something spiritually healthy about that. Call it meditation, call it prayer, call it getting away from crazy people, it‘s important to the human condition. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics @ravenlee yoga focus when you first start yoga -true not the fad- breath and just try to be still many people cry uncontrollably and don‘t want to be in that space so they quit, but the goal is keep going until you‘ve released all that pain stress trauma even if it is months keep trying everyday and then you‘ll reach a time of zen nothing sitting in peace of only for 5 min. That‘s what I experienced anyway and students too. 2mo
TheBookHippie So yes. With practice. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie is that really doing nothing, though? It‘s still an active choice to sit and breath. I‘m not sure the human mind is capable of not thinking. (edited) 2mo
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ravenlee I‘m not sure what the value of a utopian ideal is, exactly - how is it that different from a religious vision of heaven/eternity? Is it so we have some goal toward which we can strive, knowing that it cannot be attained? 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I‘m not sure. I think it could be either. I think it could be a fun thought experiment. I think it can be whatever a culture or situation makes of it. I don‘t think banning it is practical or even possible. There is no value to banning it, there may be room to clarify it‘s use in a given context, though. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics 🤷🏻‍♀️ no. It seems silly to me. 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I agree with @ravenlee that it‘s not much different than heaven/eternity. 2mo
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ravenlee I have to say, this smacks of gatekeeping to me. I don‘t like the idea of someone, anyone, getting to decide that anybody does or does not get to experience the arts. I know very little about art, but if somebody denies me access to a museum because of my ignorance then I‘ll never learn. It makes me think of the people who criticize the concertgoers who aren‘t dressed to the nines: I‘ve been to concerts and ushered at the local symphony orchestra 2mo
ravenlee and there‘s a certain class of patrons (think pearls, furs, and tuxes) who sneer at the younger crowd who arrive in jeans. I applaud anybody who attends a symphony performance, regardless of their attire. As a performer, I just want bodies in seats and appreciative listeners. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I completely agree. There is already a certain amount of gatekeeping. We don‘t need more of it. In fact, we need less of it. When I read this part, I was a little dismayed. 2mo
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ravenlee I get that he‘s talking about interest in and willingness to learn as the price of admission, instead of wealth and privilege, but who‘s the arbiter? And what keeps them from telling me that I‘m not earnest enough and don‘t deserve a chance? 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I see that side of it. Money doesn‘t get you in. Maybe that‘s the point. If you want to go in, you get to go in. There is no arbiter, other than if someone is there against their will they don‘t have to go in. I think I like that. 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee yes gatekeeping!!!!! 2mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie don‘t we currently have gatekeeping? 2mo
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ravenlee This makes me think of Guns, Germs, and Steel, in its analysis of which civilizations were able to develop the kind of stratification that supports non-food-producing positions (priests, artisans, chiefs). Bureaucracy seems an almost inevitable product of cultural progress. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee but does it have to continue to be? I‘m not sure it does. Those stratifications instead of being higher and lower classes could be organised vertically and then it‘s just different interests and talents. 2mo
ravenlee I‘d like to think that just because it has been this way doesn‘t mean it has to stay that way. I mean, isn‘t it the height of arrogance to think that right now, what we are, is it? The end of social development? We can‘t get any better than this? (Not to mention horribly depressing) 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee those are the perfect words to describe it. If this is the height of civilisation, we deserve to go extinct. 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee I agree depressing … let‘s hope change happens.. 2mo
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TheBookHippie 💯💯💯💯💯💯 I‘ll be back later to discuss. Gotta catch up. Looong week. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie totally didn‘t think about the holiday weekend when I was scheduling back in January. Maybe we should have delayed a week. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics my bday yesterday daughters today and well it was a taxing week😩. I didn‘t think of it either !!! 🤦🏻‍♀️ we can pause let everyone catch up to this point? 2mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie do you want to push next week back? 2mo
ravenlee I‘m trying to catch up today too (I swear Sunday sneaks up on me every week anymore), and that‘s when I realized it‘s a longer section. 😬 2mo
ravenlee What strikes me about this is that it is in both politics and religion that we are led by unscrupulous people who absolutely do not want us thinking for ourselves, questioning them, and taking any power for ourselves. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee the sections in this one are killer!!! I thought I had divided them up well enough, but I don‘t think so anymore. Part of me just wants to finish the thing, but then part of me wants to slow down, too. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee that‘s so true. Religious leaders and politicians are pretty much the same job. A lot of acting. A lot of lying. A lot of manipulating. 2mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics yes let‘s get caught up and then we can carry on 🤣🤦🏻‍♀️🥳 2mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee keep people ignorant easier to control them. It‘s why they try to dismantle public schools 2mo
ravenlee @GingerAntics @TheBookHippie maybe we could do one subsection per week for the remaining part? The next two together are close to 30 pages, which is a fair bit for something this dense. 2mo
ravenlee @TheBookHippie and ban books from libraries. 2mo
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I like the idea of philosophy being practical and transformative. As someone who philosophised naturally as a kid A LOT (though I firmly believe most kids do to some extent), I really wish more people understood the practical nature of philosophy and the necessity for it in our lives and society.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

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I think the “two Americas” MLK talked about are even further apart than they were then, or ever have been in history.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

ravenlee Absolutely - the disappearance of a true middle class and the widening of the wealth gap are both very real. 2mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee absolutely 2mo
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So many checks written by America have bounced. The first was to the slaves, then to women, then to children… this has been true since day one. Let‘s be honest.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety

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GingerAntics The answer to this one might also be Christine. 🤣😂🤣 3mo
TheBookHippie Such zen. Non materialistic. When you have enough you can live peacefully. Unfortunately the perceived what is enough is an issue. Especially among white men. Money is power to those who want more it and those who do not have enough. That needs to change. When you contribute your extras -you‘re so much more peaceful. Do you own your stuff or does it own you? It is such a backward society currently. Lacking in community and altruism ..maddening. 3mo
ravenlee I have to share, as once again she‘s on topic for our discussions: https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/may-21-2022 It‘s about LBJ‘s Great Vision speech, and it reads a little like Imagine. 3mo
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GingerAntics @ravenlee always that conservative, greedy back lash. 3mo
ravenlee I absolutely love the idea that if I currently have more than I need, I will give some to you. Someday, when I need more than I have, you or someone else will give me their surplus. I wouldn‘t have to hoard all my resources against “just in case” because somebody would always have my back. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I love the idea of having each other‘s backs. This is how children have been raised for generations, millennia, but now if parents want their kids‘ grandparents to take their grandkids for an hour, they‘re lazy parents. 🙄 Oi. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I feel like everyone would benefit. “Oh, I lost my job.” “Cool, you like kids. You can watch mine while I run errands and I‘ll buy you groceries.” “Actually, it turns out I really like watching kids all day.” “Cool, you can start a community day care.” Now everyone benefits. People are happy with the work they do. People have the freedom to do things they‘re passionate about - as a job or otherwise. Everyone in the community has why they 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee need. I just don‘t get how we have gotten SO far away from what has worked for SO long, SO quickly, but it‘s current parents that are the problem. No idea how that works out. No idea how people don‘t notice how the entire society has changed from even 30 years ago. 3mo
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GingerAntics @ravenlee this one if for you! 3mo
TheBookHippie Yes!!!! People would be free to use their talents. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie totally agree. I think more people would have the free time to hone their talents and enjoy their talents, and eventually share those talents. I think more people would then have the opportunity to eventually, at some point, make those talents one‘s job. 3mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think their would be greater value placed on that as well, so there would be less of the entitlement or feeling the need to not reimburse that hard work and time spent. 3mo
ravenlee This reminds me of my college days. My school had an established 5-year BM Performance/BME (music education) degree path. A few people took it out of genuine desire, but probably 75% or more did it for “back up” purposes, either for their own concerns or their parents‘. Because nobody can count on making a living as a performer, right? So many of them were miserable because they genuinely didn‘t like working with kids. 3mo
ravenlee And then there‘s the music graduation industry itself. There is a finite number of orchestras in which to find a job, and very few of those provide a living wage (most pros supplement by teaching private lessons, master classes, and festivals). Once you have a job you tend to stay. Yet every year thousands more new grads need to look for employment. And as arts funding shrinks, the job market does too. Yet schools increase their student output. 3mo
ravenlee To answer the question, yes! If we were all able to count on basic survival, there would be so many more people using their creative gifts. The time we need to learn and practice our skills wouldn‘t be considered wasted time, or something we need to cram into otherwise busy schedules. Sigh. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee yeah, that makes me think of being a music major. People would hear that and roll their eyes or talk about how I was wasting a college education. The colleges don‘t care that they‘re cranking out more grads every year, because they‘re making money and a name for themselves along the way. The whole system is corrupt in that sense. It can‘t be much different for painters, sculptors, photographers, writers, etc. 3mo
ravenlee My alma mater is well-known for its music theater program. When I was a student, they used to boast a 100% employment rate among BMT grads, and rave about the stand-outs (one was in the premiere cast of Mamma Mia, for instance). And yet I personally knew one who was waiting tables at Applebee‘s the year after grad. So, she was employed, but not quite in her area of study. Not sure if she chose to stay close to home for a while, but whatever. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I would be immensely impressed if they really got 100% of their grads hired in their fields, but interesting they didn‘t mention that last bit. Hired is one thing. Hired in musical theatre, music, or theatre is quite another thing. 3mo
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TheBookHippie SERIOUSLY!!! This was my thought. It‘s going to keep happening… unless change happens. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie absolutely! So much needs to change. We force births, but make it impossible for anyone with a job outside the home to feed their infant in the same week. WTF people?! 3mo
ravenlee Wow, if we could produce what‘s needed and not have surplus gluts and artificial scarcities, and just have ENOUGH…hard to imagine. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee exactly! We know roughly how many infants/children under 1 year we have in this country. We could easily produce enough formula for every one of those babies to have formula if needed. Boom. No formula shortage ever. The only surplus that would exist would be from the babies that are breastfed. Most of those kids will get used to bottles at daycare and they‘ll switch to all formula before age 1 anyway. (edited) 3mo
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TheBookHippie That would be NOPE. Tear it all down… 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that‘s what I was thinking when I got to that part. I was thinking, this law is set up to keep the little guys down, but the big guys do what they want. Just look at Facebook or Amazon. 🙄 3mo
ravenlee Monopolies might be nominally illegal but look at the baby formula crisis and tell me there aren‘t monopolies. Defense contractors have consolidated themselves into something like five conglomerates, from well over 100 20-30 years ago. Whatever rules might be in place aren‘t working. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee but they‘ll take away rules that keep internet service providers from throttling certain websites that won‘t pay the extortion fees to those companies. 🙄 They fix what bothers them and keep in place things that don‘t have an effect on them. This goes back to why I think every elected official should be forced to live on the average income of their constituents. 3mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I‘m pretty sure you are the answer to this one. 3mo
TheBookHippie Gads…. THEY NEED TO DO SO MUCH MORE. It‘s there- but it‘s not doing enough… too many snakes in Congress… daily deregulations aren‘t helping…we aren‘t headed anywhere good that‘s for sure. Personally in defence mode. They need to abolish filibuster expand the court codify laws and fix the tax code for starters… and do it now. Judas. It‘s not looking good and my hope is exhausted. So on the community level we need to unite immediately. To survive 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I agree with ALL of this!!! 3mo
ravenlee Lawmakers won‘t settle the minimum wage issue because it doesn‘t affect them. Also medical coverage, living conditions, and so much more. They won‘t make changes to campaign finance rules because it would cost them too much, and limits on their stock investments. The people who make the rules profit by them and therefore have absolutely no incentive to change them. 3mo
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TheBookHippie I find we are seeing that play out now-but also so many of us aren‘t truly free, right? And the saying the liberty to do something that‘s not everyone either. It‘s still rolling around my head… 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie that one still rolls around, but resonates with the current climate. Absolutely. I think very few people are truly free right now. There is liberty, but only for some. 3mo
ravenlee This made me think of the difference between “freedom to” and “freedom from.” It‘s in The Handmaid‘s Tale but I‘ve encountered it elsewhere, too. 3mo
ravenlee Liberty exists within constraints, while freedom is unconstrained. This brings back our perennial discussion of free will, doesn‘t it? You may have choices, and make the most of what you have, but only within the framework in which you exist. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I like that. I hadn‘t put this idea together with our free Will discussions, but that‘s a really good point. These are very similar, if not the same conversation. 3mo
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TheBookHippie Well Reagan ruined our initial tax system trickle down economics BS… 3mo
TheBookHippie Paying your fair share in taxes for one and when you have more than you could possibly spend it needs to go to the greater good. Instead of you know Twitter…. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oi yes! 🙄 Some people seem to manage this on their own. There is Bill Gates and his whole group of friends that give away the vast majority or all of their annual income these days. Then there are the greedy jerks. 3mo
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ravenlee Dolly Parton comes to mind, too. I don‘t know who said it but being a billionaire is a moral failing - nobody needs that much of anything, especially not when there are so many going without. Another saying that comes to mind (Mary Poppins, maybe?) is, “Enough is as good as a feast.” Seems rational to me. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee did Dolly Parton say that? It kind of sounds like her. Both of those quotes are perfect for this discussion. 3mo
ravenlee I doubt it was Dolly, as she‘s usually very noncritical of others. I don‘t recall where I encountered it. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee true, she‘s very love everyone and live and let live. She has a thing with helping those that are without, if I remember correctly. I think it ties back to how she grew up, in poorer communities where none of them knew they were poor because everyone else they knew was just as poor. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee of course now I‘m questioning myself. Was that Dolly or someone else? Crap. I can‘t remember. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee it was Dolly. I‘m trying to see who said being a billionaire is a moral failing, but it appears in this article about Dolly. https://www.thehandbook.com/dolly-parton-may-just-be-the-greatest-human-alive-he... 3mo
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TheBookHippie I have PTSD with this one it was the parochial school you give ______ up or you can‘t have or don‘t do _______ so you can be happy in Christ etc etc …. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I hadn‘t thought of it that way, but that‘s a really valid point. “Freedom on Christ” sure has a lot of strings attached and requires forfeiting a lot of other freedoms. It doesn‘t feel very free at times. 3mo
ravenlee Sounds Patriot Act-ish to me… 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee right? It‘s probably why most Christians supported the patriot act. They were completely used to that sort of forfeiture of freedom for supposed liberty. 3mo
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GingerAntics This isn‘t a discussion question, just a quote that stood out to me. If you want to discuss have at it, but you don‘t have to. 3mo
TheBookHippie Hippie Commune done right would be this … everyone has a talent many are unable to use it as it isn‘t cost prohibitive… artist deserve way more WHILE LIVING… for example. 3mo
jimfields3 When you look at socialism throughout history its record isn‘t too good on encouraging spirituality, and communism is explicitly atheist. Do you advocate for a new version, or do you view socialism‘s record differently than I do? 3mo
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ravenlee @jimfields3 the book we‘ve been reading isn‘t about historical versions of socialism/communism, but the author‘s analysis of Marx‘s theories and writings. Hägglund‘s explanations are very interesting. 3mo
jimfields3 Ah, interesting! Thanks for sharing, @ravenlee 3mo
ravenlee @jimfields3 👍 He‘s actually quite critical of the misinterpretations of Marx in various settings. 3mo
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🤍tagged
📙 so far 5 stars
📙physical (kindle is only at night with insomnia)
✍🏼 I‘m a note taker! I do flag up my tomes and keep a separate notebook for each book. But not with all books I read.

Everyone tagged!!! #ThoughtfulThursday

MoonWitch94 Thanks for playing ☺️📚 3mo
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This paragraph really hits the nail on the head, doesn‘t it? #DeadPhilosophersSociety #ThisLife @GingerAntics @kspenmoll @TheBookHippie

TheBookHippie Right?!?! 🤯 3mo
GingerAntics 100% 3mo
kspenmoll So true. 3mo
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This makes me think of John Lennon‘s song Imagine (which of course makes me think of NYE, which makes me think of Andy Cohen and Anderson Cooper… and Anderson‘s tipsy giggles!).
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

TheBookHippie Save the world raise a hippie….. altruism ..live in community… 3mo
TheBookHippie I‘m the wrong person to ask 🤣 I never understood having massive amounts knowing others do not and doing zero to help. 3mo
ravenlee It would be awesome to live in a world in which nobody died of hunger while their neighbors gorged; where everyone took care of each other; nobody had to work three jobs to afford a crappy, tiny apartment for a three-generation family of 12…sigh. 3mo
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GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think that sums it up perfectly. Save the world, raise a hippie. 🧡🧡🧡 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I think we‘ve seriously lost any sense of community. No one remembers that we rise or fall together, no matter what they think, how they act, or the BS they believe in. Everyone used to know this intimately, then we started gathering wealth and greed took over. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie I read a book on education (that in some ways ruined me as an educator in the best possible way - Christine, we should start one of these schools together!) that talked A LOT about hunter-gatherer societies and I think that same mentality applied here. Everyone contributed in ways that they were good at and able, if someone was tired or sick or just needed a break, they would stay home for the day and no one cared. (edited) 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie it was encouraged to stay home when sick or when they hadn‘t stayed home in a long time, if a family member was about I give birth, if a child was really sick. Everyone worked together and the idea that someone needed to not work for whatever reason was seen as, when I needed that, when I need that again, I‘ll be covered so I‘m happy to cover for another. The entire group knew they work together or the perish together. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie I wonder if we could read Free to Learn from a philosophical perspective. It might be fun, actually. 🤣😂🤣 Because obviously we don‘t have enough philosophy books in the world. Technically, it is education philosophy and social philosophy. 😂🤣😂 3mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee sigh…. I so agree. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee I just ran into a prime example of always looking to make money off of everything. So I have an IG account just for my hair (it‘s my one girly thing and I take really good care of it and the community can be great). There is a woman how does a winter growth challenge and a summer growth challenge every year. It‘s mostly just 3-5 things to help keep your hair healthy for the season… 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee you take a picture at the beginning and 4 months later when it‘s all over you take another one. It‘s a fun way to see progress in the years long journey of growing hair. Anyway, this other girl asked a bunch of us if we would want to do a growth challenge with her. A friend of mine from RL and I both said we would do it. Then, she had a fee to get the check list of what you needed to do for the challenge. 🙄 Gimme a break. 3mo
GingerAntics Then I found out from someone who paid the money that it‘s like 15-20 things and it‘s for two months. She was pissed and she dropped out of it. 3mo
ravenlee @GingerAntics 🤦🏻‍♀️ 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee I know it‘s a dumb example, but it‘s almost even worse because it‘s so pointless. 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics happens alllllll the time. 3mo
ravenlee I was thinking about my part-time music gig. I do odd jobs (a musical here, a church service there, mostly twice-a-year holidays with a church orchestra), and one of the gents who plays most of them and in the symphony here has asked me several times to play in the college ensemble he directs. The school is tiny and the music department is really scattershot, so he fills in the group with local talent so the music majors can have the experience 3mo
ravenlee I played with them for a semester before COVID but we never performed, and I haven‘t been able to go back. It‘s mercenary, but I can‘t afford to do a weekly volunteer ensemble when I have to worry about childcare/homeschool. Another community band leader is trying to recruit me to fill out the group, too, and it‘s the same thing - I can‘t commit to the time required without being paid. I wish I didn‘t have to worry about that aspect, but I do. 3mo
ravenlee So the college guy contacted me about their graduation, needed a few people to fill in the ceremony band. Most were volunteers but a handful of ringers got paid, which is how the church orchestra works as well. It would be great if they could rely entirely on volunteers, but having a few professionals balances the ensemble and makes it all sound/work better. We can‘t afford to do it for free when it‘s also what we do for a living. 3mo
ravenlee So, not to really fulfill the thought experiment, but it‘s where my head went. There are a lot of people who want musicians/photographers/artists to work “for exposure” and do our labor for free, and it‘s all tied into the wage labor idea. People don‘t value the behind-the-scenes time and effort our professions involve. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee oh, I totally agree with that. I was a music major and it was amazing how many “great opposites” were presented to us as “professional gigs” that would standout on resumes, etc, but in the end, you were paying $100 in gas and endless hours of practice for the privilege… along with the fact that these things always seemed to become available during juries/finals. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee There was just no way. There is such a disregard for the time and effor that goes into these things. I totally feel you. It‘s interesting that the smallest things will be turned into a money making scheme, dollar by dollar, but those same people expect things that are far from free and shouldn‘t be free at no cost to themselves. I think this ties back into how and what we value. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee it goes back to Napster and free download sites. I heard a musician once say it‘s easier to download 3 minutes of music than a 2 hour movie. It‘s only 3 minutes, so it must have less value than the 2 hours, but in reality it doesn‘t. People got mad when they had to pay for their music again, like they had a right to other people‘s hard work, and the cost of producing that product (I hate to call it that) is seen as meaningless. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I mean, the amount she was asking for was low. It was actually seemingly ridiculous. She wanted $3. I get that she took the time to think up all of these things, but she clearly didn‘t take the time to think about the realities of the thing. In the end, it was the principal of the thing. Interestingly, I haven‘t seen a single post about her growth challenge since, so I‘m thinking it didn‘t work out as she hoped. 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics generally not. I prefer the people who put a massive amount of work in explaining something or teaching something and say if you want buy me a coffee and they have a little venmo or etc 3mo
ravenlee Exactly - who/what has value. A lot of people value their own time so highly but seem to look down on entertainers and artists as somehow owing people their talent. Tangentially related, there are people who argue that artists shouldn‘t use psychiatric meds, because the torment feeds their art and where would we be if Van Gogh had used antidepressants? Again, who has value? 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee wow, but then he might have lived longer and produced many more works… and kept both ears while he was at it. I totally get that. Yeah, it‘s like if you‘re creative in anyway, you somehow owe it to humanity to share your talents, but also be a “productive member of society” some other way because creatives used to die broke and become famous posthumously. 🙄 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee so basically, “we‘ve never really valued people like you until your dead and we don‘t want to start now. That would be too complicated.” 🙄 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie right? I will gladly buy that person coffee or something, but it wasn‘t done for the money. It was done for the passion. You can kind of tell when someone is doing stuff for the money. 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics value upon death seems to be their motto…. 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I agree a coffee is good. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oi so stupid! Most famous artists and musicians from the post had patrons that housed, clothed, and fed them so all of their time could be spent writing, performing, painting, teaching the patron‘s children and the children of their friends, whatever. Now, we would call that freeloading and lazy, but somehow we still expect that paradigm to be in play. It‘s ridiculous. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I‘ve been known to help with printing costs or make them a meal, too, depending on the situation. I think it becomes obvious when people do stuff just for the money. It‘s unfortunate, because so many people are doing things for the right reasons, but people are turned off of the people acting for the right reasons because of the charlatans. 3mo
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TheBookHippie That everyone benefits…. That you too can be “me” if you “work hard” “ pull yourself up by your boot straps “ 🙄 3mo
ravenlee @TheBookHippie is right. Also, it‘s a system that eats itself. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie oh my god I 🤬ing HATE that phrase. It‘s total BS for one, and it gets thrown around at the dumbest times. I want to punch people in the face when they say that 🤬. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee it absolutely does eat itself. It has to in order to survive. 3mo
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Bookwomble I think the research done on UBI shows that rather than the right-wing expectation that people will be lazy and do nothing, that people liberated from the immediate concerns of physical survival generally find activities which are both personally fulfilling and socially valuable, and profitable. The barrier to UBI is the ideological view that the poor are lazy and undeserving, rather than oppressed. 3mo
TheBookHippie You can use me. The work I do teaching hundreds to read to be able to function in society keeps the pipeline to prison not as likely. Which benefits society and I made zero dollars. I even spent money to do it. 3mo
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ravenlee I agree with all of this, including the “where does it come from” concern. There needs to be a safety net to allow people the freedom to leave unhealthy work environments and unsafe living situations. The affect of UBI on domestic violence speaks volumes. 3mo
Bookwomble @TheBookHippie I get that. My profession is largely based on volunteerism, with a constant flow of students required to do unpaid work to get qualified, with few paid jobs at the end as there's always more unpaid labour coming through the system. I'm lucky to be in employment doing the job I actually trained for. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee 100%!!! I loved the effect it had on domestic violence. No wonder so many are against UBI. Women are possessions and can be treated how men see fit. I wonder how long it takes them after overturning Roe v Wade to pass some nonsense laws that slapping your wife isn‘t assault. 3mo
GingerAntics @Bookwomble that‘s solid exploitation. It‘s not right, but so common. Something similar is happening in education, honestly. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie it can be easily argued that you are being exploited. They should have to pay for your services because you‘re doing what is actually one of the most important jobs there is, but they know they can get volunteers, bleeding hearts, to do it for free. I‘m kind of surprised that they haven‘t started pushing teaching jobs in that direction as well. 3mo
ravenlee Well, considering that Alito wrote his opinion citing precedent from a 400-year-old legal code written by a man who celebrated spousal rape and the forfeiture by married women of all rights to property or personhood - and that GOP asshats are already talking about targeting birth control access and interracial marriage - I‘d say that‘s not too far off. 3mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee I agree about the Supreme Court it‘s just one big slippery slope… it‘s all going… 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics oh I‘m sure people think it‘s exploration except it‘s more of a resistance goal look who I‘m educating in the title one school. No one privileged. 😊 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie true… they‘re not going to be falling over themselves to pay you anytime soon. You‘re doing a job that no one wants to do (in their minds), and that they really don‘t want being done. If you want to spend your free time (which they see as having no value anyway) doing that, they can‘t be bothered. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I hadn‘t seen that they passed that again. That‘s good. I can‘t believe anyone let it laps to begin with. Suddenly it has bipartisan support when it didn‘t 3 years ago? 🤨 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee @TheBookHippie yeah, the fact guys who don‘t know if implantation kills a fertilised egg, but think a IUD does kill a fertilised egg are making these laws does not inspire confidence. I kind of like the IUD that keeps me from bleeding out every month May soon be a crime. As I learned in TX, “come and take it.” Good luck when I send your nose bones into your brains when you try. 😇 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie @ravenlee any rights we have as citizens or human beings are under threat at the moment. Alito proves it. I‘ve been saying for years that staunch conservatives still have the world view that women are property of their fathers until they become property of their husbands, and I‘ve always been told I was exaggerating and being ridiculous. Who‘s ridiculous now? 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics I knew in my town this has always been the goal I had a former friend tell me it didn‘t matter what a candidate did they had to get the seats of the Supreme Court so they can overturn Roe trump could have sex with his daughter on video and they‘d still support him to get Abortion illegal that‘s what people miss. They preach it from pulpits . It‘s sick. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie YES!!! This is so true. People have been so focused on overturning Roe for the last 50 years. This just brings me back to why the bloody hell we didn‘t codify this into law sometime in the last 50 bloody years?! They sure as hell weren‘t going to let it pass at the last minute when conservatives were so close to getting it overturned! It didn‘t help that Joe Manchin is a bloody Republican in disguise. 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics Joe is friends with Trump for Fuchs sake … ughhhh he is the devil. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie he should seriously be kicked out of the Democratic Party. Just saying. If not for him, we would have had a law protecting abortion rights right now and the Supreme Court‘s partisan bull🤬 wouldn‘t mean anything. 3mo
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And yet the staunchest capitalists defend their position through the language of individualism. Funny how that all works out.
#ThisLife #MartinHagglund #Philosophy #AdventuresInPhilosophy #DeadPhilosophersSociety
@TheBookHippie @ravenlee @JaclynW @RavenLovelyReads @AlaSkaat @Chrissyreadit @kspenmoll

ravenlee That‘s because “my” freedom is never “your” freedom. 3mo
ravenlee And they‘d probably argue that the workers have lots of freedom - but if your individual choices don‘t align with those of the ownership, the consequences of your freedom will lead to unemployment. Which, as we‘ve seen, still benefits the owners. Ford‘s dictum about car colors comes to mind - you can have it any color you want, as long as it‘s black. 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee 😂🤣😂 so true. You can do what you want, as long as you do what I want. It‘s imposing their choices onto everyone else. Gee, where else are we seeing that lately? 🤯 It‘s bloody everywhere!!! 3mo
TheBookHippie This is the most infuriating …. Ugh there is no freedom 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie exactly!!! Land of the free my pink 🤬. 3mo
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TheBookHippie It keeps the poor poor … 3mo
TheBookHippie Controlling of wages and prices is never a good idea… plus rampant consumerism .. 3mo
ravenlee This is the paradigm the fast food industry is built on. Keep wages low and maintain constant employee turnover, keeping prices low enough to attract the masses and thereby rake in profits for the owners. (I recently read Fast Food Nation, by the way) 3mo
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ravenlee It creates an endless pool of potential low-wage workers. I‘m reminded of the scene in A League of Their Own, when the new teams see the “uniform” for the first time and protest its brevity. The league rep says there are dozens of girls getting tickets for home who will play in a bathing suit if I ask them. Power and exploitation. (edited) 3mo
GingerAntics @ravenlee I think that‘s a repeated theme here. Power and exploitation. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I think people thrive off of constant worker turn over. I literally just left a job where I saw that. They are constantly hiring and training new people because they know and don‘t care that people are going to leave. It‘s pathetic. My last job, I worked with the exact same people for years. Not true in my last job. EVERYONE was always looking for a better opportunity and leaving the first chance they got because that job was crap. 3mo
GingerAntics @TheBookHippie I need to be treated like a human. I need to get my legally required break. I need to be treated like I need sleep/health/sanity to function. I need to be treated like I have a life outside this building. They don‘t have to give any of that, because they already have someone in the wings to replace you when you crack and walk away. I was going to take up smoking just to get my legally required break. 3mo
TheBookHippie @ravenlee I read fast food nation when it came out!!! 3mo
TheBookHippie @GingerAntics it‘s a theme power control exploitation … 3mo
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