KindredDiscussion

Kindred | Octavia E. Butler

Question 5—How do race and gender intersect in Kindred? While this is a novel about slavery and race, how do gender roles also play a part? Would this story have been different if the protagonist had been male? What themes of intersectional feminism are relevant to Kindred?

#KindredDiscussion

BookishFeminist, rachelm

annahenke It absolutely would have changed the story! The clincher for the fear felt by Dana is the threat not only of unfamiliarity and slavery but also of rape. Being a black slave woman is as vulnerable as you can get in the American South at this time. 7y

MMenefee Would Rufus have trusted Dana's character if she were a male? Many white children were raised by black women, and Dana was more nurturing than Rufus's own mother (obvious within the few seconds they first met). 7y

MMenefee If Dana hadn't been such a strong, intelligent, independent woman she wouldn't have survived. #FeministAF 7y

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KVanRead @annahenke @MMenefee are right on the 💰 It would have to have been a very different book with a male protagonist. I also like how she addresses the gender issues in Dana and Kevin's relationship and draws parallels to Dana/Rufus. 7y

rach_simone Completely agree with @annahenke @MMenefee and @KVanRead . Also, we see how things are "easier" for Kevin in that time period. As I remember, sometimes Rufus felt a certain control with Dana and he wouldn't have if Dana had been a white male. 7y

Hooked_on_books Totally agree with all. I would definitely be interesting to turn the tables and have the Dana character be male. After all, society at the time completely accepted a white male having a sexual relationship (usually rape, though not with Dana and Kevin) with a slave but would not have accepting this from a white woman. Sexism yet again. 7y

ReadingEnvy I love the obvious parallels of marriage as almost a slavery. And how much the male privilege is similar to the white privilege. He is so free not to notice it, or change it, because he sees himself as unaffected by it. 7y

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LitsyFeministBookClub

Kindred | Octavia E. Butler

You may already have this critical essay on Kindred in the back of your book, but in case you don't, it's great and can be read here:

https://www.beacon.org/Assets/PDFs/Kindredrg.pdf

There are lots of great discussion points brought up in it. Feel free to discuss this piece here!

If anyone has other articles or content related to Kindred, I'd love to post it.

#KindredContent #KindredDiscussion

BookishFeminist, rachelm

Bibliogeekery This essay was so great! 🍋💓😍 7y

KVanRead @Bibliogeekery Agree! I loved learning more about the author too and the context of sci fo writing at the time. 7y

KVanRead *sci fi 7y

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LitsyFeministBookClub

Kindred | Octavia E. Butler

Question 4—How are we conditioned to respond to discussions of slavery? What about racism and racial issues? How are these two connected & how do you think our conditioning and dialogue on these issues can be improved as a society? Do you think our conditioning holds us back?

#KindredDiscussion

BookishFeminist, rachelm

rachelm I think it's so easy to dismiss our nation's history. It's easy to say, oh my ancestors weren't here yet... instead of just listening when the issue is brought up. 7y

Foxyfictionista I've heard a lot of people in the past say that it happened so long ago that people should be over it by now. I feel like a lot of times people just try to shut down conversations that make them feel uncomfortable. And self-analysis might prove oneself to be racist so it's easier to avoid that as well. I think it's very relevant in today's society. 7y

TheNextBook Good ol' slavery. Uncle Tom's Cabin did a really good at depicting how so many people, especially Christians, found justifications to why slavery was good for black people. I think people can be conditioned to accept many things and that usually happens when they become resigned to it and accept it. Look at whats going on in the US now. Too many people who aren't directly affected by the political climate are complicit and accept it. 7y

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TheNextBook They brush off the accusations of racism, sexism and phobia and are telling people to move on there's nothing to see here. No, there's plenty to see. People are just choosing to accept it because they don't believe they can actively change it. Slavery is gone in America but racism exist and is felt throughout the country. Now people look back at slavery and say "we'll at least we're not there anymore". My response is always "yet." 7y

TheNextBook As a society an honest, respectful dialogue would go a long way. But as I've said before education is key and too many people choose to be ignorant on topics that make them uncomfortable. 7y

Caterina I totally agree with all of the above! I also think that Kindred was super important because a)we tend to view things relatively, so when we think about issues like slavery we view it separately - like, in Kindred it was easy to get lulled into thinking that Dana had it good relative to the others, or that Nigel had it good, etc. But each time we were sling shotted back into the 1970s, the horrors of slavery were relative to modern times, which 👇 7y

Caterina Emphasized those horrors in a way that nothing else ever has for me. It's the same with racial issues too often: people think relative to other things, which allows them to say things about how minorities have it better than they used to, rather than focusing on how they still have it bad and we need to change that. And b)Through having Dana married to a white man, Butler did a great job of criticizing how white people talk and think about slavery 7y

Caterina While also showing how white people grew accustomed to slavery so often. In critiquing white approaches to slavery, Butler speaks indirectly to white approaches to modern day racism. She shows how easy it is for the privileged to turn a blind eye, how different an outsider's view is, and how white people make excuses through relativism. 7y

Owlizabeth @Caterina Excellent point! @TheNextBook @Foxyfictionista @rachelm there is also a response that I've been guilty of that shuts down the conversation "I can't hear about it, it hurts too much/it's too upsetting" which is such a privilege that I've been trying to ignore recently. And I've read so much more diversely and critically than in the past and it has been awesome. 7y

beaniebankbeth Thank you, @TheNextBook ! Education ? is ? key? Someone in my irl book club mentioned that so many of us are taught not to note differences in race & to not talk about race since it's a "sensitive topic," but that's exactly why it should be discussed. 7y

Hooked_on_books Really good discussion here! Clearly racism is the child of slavery and both are taught, making them seem "normal" and therefore not questioned or changed. Generating dialogue is what could help us to change our culture by forcing a different perspective and hopefully different attitudes. Which, unfortunately, we currently seem to be backsliding on. 7y

Foxyfictionista @Owlizabeth I've been guilty of that before too. But then I have to remember that if it's exhausting for me, what must it be like for people who have to deal with it on the receiving end. @TheNextBook i think that you are absolutely right about education. We're taught to look up to our fore fathers with unquestioning admiration but we were never taught to question their problematic behavior. I was taught that slavery was bad... 7y

Foxyfictionista ...but now it's over so it's ok. I have a very strong sense of empathy so I've done my own research and have asked questions. I also read a lot and try to read diversity for different viewpoints. It took me many years to understand and get to grips with my privilege. I think that many of you littens have done the same. But imagine if that information was taught from primary school and if students were taught... 7y

Foxyfictionista ...to think critically instead of memorise facts. If they were taught to question society and how we behave instead of just accepting it and moving on, we might then be in a better place. My school days are long behind me so maybe things are improving but children usually follow their parents lead and from my viewpoint our country seems to be in a shambles. 7y

TheNextBook @Foxyfictionista It makes me beg the question why aren't we honest with children? For example why dont we explain what really happened when Columbus "discovered" America? Why don't we dispell the myth of Thanksgiving? I don't understand it. For the life of me I'm trying to teach my son the truth because I don't want him to grow up with the misconceptions that I was taught. 7y

Foxyfictionista @TheNextBook I must admit that within the past few years I've become super aware of things I want taught in school, and those things you mentioned are only a few. It's pretty upsetting; like I've been lied to. I think that as bleak as everything seems, information is more and more accessible these days and I think that we have to do our best to pass on that information. 7y

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LitsyFeministBookClub

Kindred | Octavia E. Butler

Sorry the questions have been a little spotty this week! I've been traveling & feeling under the weather since I got back home. But onward we go! ?

Question 3—what put you on edge in this novel? How did the "unknown" affect you? What is the "unknown" in Kindred? How did Octavia Butler incorporate science fiction elements into this historical slave narrative?

#KindredDiscussion

BookishFeminist, rachelm

whatthelog It's interesting actually- in a lot of interviews Butler talks about how she doesn't consider kindred as sci-fi! (Tho we don't have to listen to her, obviously!) I think it is, personally. I also thought that beginning in media res was a great way to unsettle the reader and let us know that something pretty freaky was going on! 7y

beaniebankbeth The involuntary time travel as a vehicle for the plot definitely reminded me of "The Time Traveler's Wife," but this was written before that book and is used for a much more relevant topic, a shared yet divisive American history. 7y

beaniebankbeth As mentioned in Crossley's critical essay, the sliding scale of morality, particularly in the case of Dana 's part in Alice's fate, is what made me most uncomfortable in this book. But, Butler writes this to such incredible effect, & in the reader's discomfort in Dana's actions to drive Alice to Rufus we really see the awful choices people of that time, most often slaves & POC, had to make in order to survive. 7y

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Hooked_on_books I agree with @beaniebankbeth : Dana driving Alice to Rufus was uncomfortable for sure, though completely understandable to insure her own existence. She clearly felt uncomfortable with this, too. And I have a clear (and possibly incorrect) concept of what scifi is and would never label this book scifi. 7y

Owlizabeth I wouldn't say this book was sci-fi; I would classify it as fantasy in the magical realism realm. As for uncomfortable: ugghhhh most of this book made me uncomfortable. I mean, so much cognitive dissonance is supposed to make your head spin, right? 7y

beaniebankbeth In regards to discomfort in reading, though, the book is effective because of it. To me, this book is medicine: I am not going to be comfortable with it, nor should I be, but I need it to make me better, more empathetic, more aware of this history that is still much in our present. 7y

SoniaC I felt that in this book the unknown was how and when she would get home each time she traveled back. The beginning made it quite clear something bad happened in the process. As for what put me on edge it was just about everything. Slavery as a concept and the inherent racism. The difficult choices she had to make such as with Alice. Watching each time as Rufus was even worse and she still had to save him. It all set me on edge. 7y

merelybookish This book does not feel like sci-fi. Time travel is necessary to the plot, but never much explored or explained. I think the fact Dana was never safe kept me anxious. There was no one she could ever fully trust. She couldn't rely on anyone or anything (the law. The church, etc) for protection. On a whim, Rufus (or any other white person) could have her whipped or send her to the fields, etc. Even the other slaves couldn't always be relied upon. 7y

LeanneAslin Rufus's behaviour throughout the book made me extremely uncomfortable, and this feeling got worse as I progressed through the book. There were times when his conscience seemed to catch up with him, but like the flick of a switch could disregard it the minute something didn't go his way. Sometimes I couldn't believe how quickly Dana would forgive him 7y

LeanneAslin Sorry, hit send by accident! I think some very good points were made in the least discussion topic as to why Dana forgave him so quickly, and I agree with a lot of the comments, but it didn't make it any easier to read sometimes! 7y

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LitsyFeministBookClub

Kindred | Octavia E. Butler

Question 2—how does Dana's vision of Rufus evolve throughout the novel? Are there particular impressions of Rufus that stuck with you? Which ones?

#KindredDiscussion

BookishFeminist, rachelm

readordierachel I think because time was so condensed for her, even though sometimes years had passed for Rufus, Dana still seemed to view him almost as a child. Maybe that's why she forgave him for some of his cruelty? She still seemed to hold out hope that his opinions could still be formed/changed. 7y

ingredientx I agree with @ReadOrDieRachel: she continued to see Rufus as a child even as he grew into adulthood. I think, though, that that image of him is what convinced her to keep trying to get through to him, to educate him in the evils and legacies of slavery. 7y

SoniaC Each time he appears more and more a product of his age. 7y

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KVanRead @SoniaC @ingredientx @ReadOrDieRachel I found it so heartbreaking to watch him become more and more a product of his father and his society. In the beginning he's a friend to Alice and Nigel, but over time friendship is brutally eclipsed by ownership. Truly a testament to the fact that racism is taught. 7y

Hooked_on_books I agree with all these comments. I found Dana's ability to recognize Rufus and his changing behaviors as a mark of his times and to not allow her anger over this take hold of herself to be remarkable. She's a good example for how we can try to cope with current events. 7y

Caterina @Hooked_on_books That's a really interesting thought. She definitely channeled her anger over Rufus into trying to change, educate, and improve him. I hadn't thought of applying that to current events! 7y

SoniaC @KVanRead yes I couldn't agree more. 7y

beaniebankbeth A lot of Dana's quick forgiveness of Rufus is seated in how he folds so much into her identity & family story. Some part of Rufus has to be good because Dana believes she is good. & she is! There is a lot of emotional reckoning that goes on when an ancestor or relative has acted or acts in a morally indefensible way. To echo @Hooked_on_books, this is another current link for those with family who voted different from them. 7y

readordierachel @beaniebankbeth Excellent point. 7y

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LitsyFeministBookClub

Kindred | Octavia E. Butler

Hey hey, folks! Thanks for your patience in postponing the Kindred discussion until today. We appreciate it and hope you all had some time for self care this weekend.

🍋To kick off our discussion, what are your thoughts on the title of Kindred? How did it help you relate to the themes of the book? Do you think it changed your impression of the events?

🍋If you have any questions, suggestions, or things to share for our discussion, let us know!

BookishFeminist, rachelm

LitsyFeministBookClub #KindredDiscussion #LFBC 7y

KVanRead I kept thinking about the title while reading this, or more the root word kin. Both the book and the title so poignantly reveal the way we inextricably tied to our ancestry/collective past. Really resonates with themes of identity and reconciliation. 7y

MMenefee I kept thinking KinDREAD would be more appropriate. 7y

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rachelm @MMenefee omg so true. 7y

rachelm @KVanRead I can absolutely see that. And what a complicated relationship when your ancestors were raped and enslaved. I thought it was almost a reflection of the US in the title too-- the uneasiness of being kin/owning up to our past as a nation. 7y

Hooked_on_books I originally thought of the title as it related to family but came to think of it as Dana's kindred feeling toward the other slaves. She was thrust into this situation of slavery and came to a deeper understanding of the other salves and their decision making, allowing the reader to feel some of these emotions alongside her. 7y

KVanRead @Hooked_on_books Such a good point. So true. @rachelm And the rapist/enslaver is also her ancestor. Her insistence on saving him until her line is assured underlines the painful fact that she also owes her existence to him, and yes, as does the US as well. 7y

Bibliogeekery The title made me think of the two different meanings of the word "kindred" - one being relatives and the other being similar, related, allied. As @KVanRead pointed out there is such complexity in being related to a slave owning rapist and not only protecting him but repeatedly forgiving him and connecting with him. As for similarities, Butler so skillfully weaves moments of connection and similarity between past and present. . . 7y

Bibliogeekery Like how Dana and Kevin fight because he expects her to do his typing and then she ends up doing Rufus' secretarial work etc. It feels so uncomfortable (in a really important way) to think about similarities between contemporary times and historical slavery - 7y

KVanRead @bibliogeekery Yes, her writing is so layered. I love how she weaves together issues of gender race and class. 7y

whatthelog I was really interested about how, in some ways, Dana was more in kinship with Rufus rather than the slaves. Just because she is also black doesn't mean that she'll automatically assimilate - a fascinating point, I think. 7y

TheNextBook Once I realized the connection between Dana and Rufus the title made sense. It was interesting because for the life of me, this really was not what I was expecting. The fact that she was so explicitly tied to his well being was jarring. 7y

beaniebankbeth Originally, I took the title to mean the bond between Dana and Alice, but then as the book progressed, how that bond, which was oh so fraught, was between Dana and Rufus. 7y

beaniebankbeth The other thought I had was the meaning of the word kindred to mean a group of people associated with someone: folks. That had me remembering the line from "To Kill a Mockingbird" again and again in my reading: "There's just one type of folks, folks." Which, of course, the failure of this idea, people recognizing those around them as simply people and not part of some hierarchy, overt or covert, is dealt with all over the book. 7y

beaniebankbeth @BookishFeminist @TheNextBook I'd mentioned in another post that there's a reading guide in my library ecopy of the book, part of which is a critical essay that is great for additional reading. It's available as a pdf, simply Google Robert Crossley's critical essay on Kindred. 7y

BookishFeminist @beaniebankbeth It's in my book too I was going to post a link! I'm glad you already have it :) 7y

beaniebankbeth @BookishFeminist It was great closure to my reading of the book. Definitely worth a read for peeps who may not have it included in their copies. 7y

TheNextBook @beaniebankbeth thank you for that link!!! 7y

merelybookish Kindred immediately makes me think of kindred spirits from Anne of Green Gables. In the context of Butler's novel, that concept shifted and spirits took on a different meaning, suggesting ghosts from the past, spiritual connections we don't choose. 7y

merelybookish @MMenefee KinDREAD works! 7y

beaniebankbeth @TheNextBook no, don't thank me. I didn't even post a link, just a "Hey, Google this!" I tried to get a link, but it would just download the pdf on me again. My tech savvy isn't so savvy at the moment. 7y

beaniebankbeth @TheNextBook I hope you enjoy it if you do read it though! 😊 7y

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